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Thread: If the Golden Plates were made available…what would happen?

  1. #1
    Pa Pa
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    Default If the Golden Plates were made available…what would happen?

    Many in the anti-Mormon community have criticized the fact that the plates upon which the Book of Mormon were taken (translated), and that they were “taken”, is very convenient” for the Mormons, because they are not available for comparison, review, inspection, etc. But in reality it is not ‘very inconvenient” at all, but “very necessary”. I have given much thought to what arguments would be made if we did have the “plates”. Before listing any it is only (FAIR©) to note that we do not have (no one has) the “Stone Tablets” upon which were engraved by the “Hand of God” the Ten Commandments. Because the OT was p***ed down via “Oral Tradition” we do not have (no one has) any original m****cripts. Beyond the OT, there are missing m****cripts of the NT as well. Also the “famous” or “infamous” missing books…


    Note: Not all missing to all versions, but missing, or a more descriptive term may be “excluded”. Many scriptural books are alleged too have been written centuries after the advent of Christ. But returning to the main theme, what if we had the “plates of gold or br***”?

    This is my list; maybe some of you could add? In addition I would also like a list from those representing other organizations or interests to list what they would need to be satisfied. Including for example IRR©, President Rob Bowman or others.

    My list…

    No one can read this language it is made up!

    They have them but will not everyone see them…this already happens with many religious artifacts that are in the possession of others; made by those not allowed to see them.

    They have not been carbon dated.

    They have been carbon dated and scientists cannot agree.

    Mormons don’t have Scholars or Scientists, BYU only teaches Pseudoscience. This one may have merit?

    I don’t care what anyone says; I have not seen them!

    OK the comments made there on the plates are correct according to the inscription, but there is no evidence beyond written that Nephites and Laminites ever existed.

    The plates are plagiarized from the Bible.

    “A Bible, a Bible, we have got a Bible and there can be no other Bible”.
    There theology does not match orthodoxy and therefore it is false.

    It does no agree with our “Creeds”!

    They store them behind protective gl***, how do we know what it is? BTW, the Church is a con has the money to produce something and do this!

    No God would require obedience for salvation.

    I will add others as additional posts…

    My list for why they are not available…”all of the above”.

    Be serious and have fun.

  2. #2
    jdjhere
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    "Look!... the plates are fake. It says 'Made in Palmyra, NY' on the back."
    "Written by the very Hand of God! But... I wonder... which... one??"
    "Lock them away in the LDS vault! Gold will ONLY go up."
    "Look what we found after an Angel instructed us to treasure dig in the Comoros Islands (called Camora Islands in 1808) near Madagascar, off the South-east coast of Africa, in the capital city (in 1876) of Moroni... GOLD!" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumorah
    "Look what we found treasure digging at the Hill Cumorah...GOLD! We dug in NY (or was it South America??) and even though we did not find any evidence of a GREAT Battle, we still found these PLATES... THANKS Moroni!"
    Last edited by jdjhere; 02-23-2012 at 03:01 PM.

  3. #3
    jdjhere
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    PaPa stated: "I would also like a list from those representing other organizations or interests to list what they would need to be satisfied."

    How about some actual evidence that Joseph actually translated ANYTHING off these plates if his head was buried in a hat, miraculously "translating"? Remember, LDS say the Angel took the plates BACK but not so with the 10 Commandments. So, conceivably, someone could STILL find the Ark of the Covenant, just as the Dead Sea Scrolls were (relatively) recently discovered.

  4. #4
    Radix
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    IF this was a legitimate question.
    IF I had a magic rock in a hat pulled over my face.
    IF those "caractors" shown to Dr. Anthon really were a real language.
    IF Egyptologists really thought Joseph had translated those facsimiles accurately.
    IF Nephites really had existed.

    Just thought I would help you with some future threads PaPa.

  5. #5
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    Pa Pa, to add to your list--no ark of the covenant, no Urim and Thummin, no breastplate---all of these were artifacts Jewish theology.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  6. #6
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Pa Pa, to add to your list--no ark of the covenant, no Urim and Thummin, no breastplate---all of these were artifacts Jewish theology.
    J we don't have any ancient Book of Mormon m****cripts that predates Joseph. For the Bible we have thousands. There is simply no comparison between the two.

  7. #7
    Radix
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Pa Pa, to add to your list--no ark of the covenant, no Urim and Thummin, no breastplate---all of these were artifacts Jewish theology.
    Let's see, all the artifacts listed did involve people we know ACTUALLY EXISTED. Outside the fictional creating mind of Joseph Smith, no proof for Nephites.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radix View Post
    Let's see, all the artifacts listed did involve people we know ACTUALLY EXISTED. Outside the fictional creating mind of Joseph Smith, no proof for Nephites.
    Please honor us with your vast knowledge and tell us, based on the evidence from the Book of Mormon (please provide references) what would you expect to find in the area you have determined to be the location (again provide references from the Book of Mormon to support your claim) that the Book took place.

    And don't claim that you can't prove a negative. You are the one who claimed that there is no proof for the Nephites, so now you have to show why you make that claim. It is your claim, so support it. If you can't prove a negative, then you have no business making this claim.

    Marvin

    PS Eight witnesses testify that the plates existed and 4 witnesses claim to have had a witness from God and testify that the book is from God. That is my first level evidence that the Nephites existed.
    “Impartiality is a pompous name for indifference, which is an elegant name for ignorance.”

    – G. K. Chesterton, The Speaker, 12/15/00

  9. #9
    Radix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    Please honor us with your vast knowledge and tell us, based on the evidence from the Book of Mormon (please provide references) what would you expect to find in the area you have determined to be the location (again provide references from the Book of Mormon to support your claim) that the Book took place.

    And don't claim that you can't prove a negative. You are the one who claimed that there is no proof for the Nephites, so now you have to show why you make that claim. It is your claim, so support it. If you can't prove a negative, then you have no business making this claim.

    Marvin

    PS Eight witnesses testify that the plates existed and 4 witnesses claim to have had a witness from God and testify that the book is from God. That is my first level evidence that the Nephites existed.
    Provide one substantive piece of evidence acceptable to at least half of the University archaeologists that would confirm the existence of Nephites. If you cannot, it is wishful thinking.

    And you are right. There is no proof for a negative. Mormons claim Nephites are legitimate, it is up to you Marvin to provide evidence to support your claim. Nephites were NEVER mentioned in any of my school text books or lectures.

  10. #10
    jdjhere
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    RussianWolfe:

    Did the people called Narods of the Grand Lakes regions in southern Peru exist? If they DID, please give archeological and textual (historical) proof that they did . If they did NOT exist, please explain WHY you came to this conclusion. Thanks.
    Last edited by jdjhere; 02-25-2012 at 12:43 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radix View Post
    Let's see, all the artifacts listed did involve people we know ACTUALLY EXISTED. Outside the fictional creating mind of Joseph Smith, no proof for Nephites.
    How do you know they actually existed? Have you ever seen them? Has anyone you know ever seen them?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  12. #12
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    How do you know they actually existed? Have you ever seen them? Has anyone you know ever seen them?
    J how about comparing like for like. The Golden plates were what we were talking about. What we are after is the Golden plates OR any writings from any of the books contained within the Book of Mormon. For the Bible we have thousands of ancient m****cripts.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radix View Post
    Let's see, all the artifacts listed did involve people we know ACTUALLY EXISTED. Outside the fictional creating mind of Joseph Smith, no proof for Nephites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Radix View Post
    Provide one substantive piece of evidence acceptable to at least half of the University archaeologists that would confirm the existence of Nephites. If you cannot, it is wishful thinking.

    And you are right. There is no proof for a negative. Mormons claim Nephites are legitimate, it is up to you Marvin to provide evidence to support your claim. Nephites were NEVER mentioned in any of my school text books or lectures.
    Now you are changing your statements. See the enlarged highlighted portion above to review what you said. Now, since you have made the claim, please provide the evidence that has lead to your conclusion. It was your claim so now you have to put up or shut up.

    To counter your challenge, please 'provide one substantive piece of evidence acceptable to at least half of the University archaeologists that would confirm the exitence of' the following: The Garden of Eden, the original stone tablet with the 10 commandments, Noah's Ark, the original holographs of any of the books of the Bible. When you have provided these evidences, then I will gladly provide the evidence of the Nephites.

    Marvin
    “Impartiality is a pompous name for indifference, which is an elegant name for ignorance.”

    – G. K. Chesterton, The Speaker, 12/15/00

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdjhere View Post
    RussianWolfe:

    Did the people called Narods of the Grand Lakes regions in southern Peru exist? If they DID, please give archeological and textual (historical) proof that they did . If they did NOT exist, please explain WHY you came to this conclusion. Thanks.
    I am not making any claims of the sort you are asking for. If you want to know, the search it out for yourself.

    Radix did make a claim and is stacking claims on top of claims. So your diversion isn't going to fly.

    Marvin
    “Impartiality is a pompous name for indifference, which is an elegant name for ignorance.”

    – G. K. Chesterton, The Speaker, 12/15/00

  15. #15
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    . . .then I will gladly provide the evidence of the Nephites.

    Marvin
    Does that mean you actually have any evidence for the Nephites living in the Americas OR are you pulling our leg Marvin?

  16. #16
    Radix
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    How do you know they actually existed? Have you ever seen them? Has anyone you know ever seen them?
    Let me guess BigJulie, you never actually took a college course in world history did you?

  17. #17
    Radix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    Now you are changing your statements. See the enlarged highlighted portion above to review what you said. Now, since you have made the claim, please provide the evidence that has lead to your conclusion. It was your claim so now you have to put up or shut up.

    To counter your challenge, please 'provide one substantive piece of evidence acceptable to at least half of the University archaeologists that would confirm the exitence of' the following: The Garden of Eden, the original stone tablet with the 10 commandments, Noah's Ark, the original holographs of any of the books of the Bible. When you have provided these evidences, then I will gladly provide the evidence of the Nephites.

    Marvin
    Let's see, you want me to find you a garden, or a single stone or m****cripts thousands of years old. I am asking you to provide evidence of a civilization. I can provide evidence of a Jewish civilization.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radix View Post
    Let me guess BigJulie, you never actually took a college course in world history did you?
    Is that a no to my question?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  19. #19
    Radix
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Is that a no to my question?
    The quality of the question begs me at ask 'Have you taken a breath of air today?'

    You want to know if the Jewish people are real? Did they actually exist in Biblical times? Have fun looking up this tid bit. Tel Dan (“David”) Stela

    Now using a source other than Joseph Smith, can you provide anything about Nephites?

  20. #20
    Billyray
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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch_of_***us

    " . . .The Arch of ***us is a 1st-century honorific arch[1] located on the Via Sacra, Rome, just to the south-east of the Roman Forum. It was constructed in c.82 AD by the Roman Emperor Domitian shortly after the death of his older brother ***us to commemorate ***us' victories, including the Siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD. . .

    . . .The south panel depicts the spoils taken from the Temple in Jerusalem. The Golden Candlestick or Menorah (see [Exodus 25:31-40]) is the main focus and is carved in deep relief. Other sacred objects being carried in the triumphal procession are the Silver Trumpets (see [Numbers 10:1-10]) and the Table of Shewbread (see [Exodus 25:23-30]).[2] These spoils were originally gilded with gold, with the background in blue.[2]. . ."

    [IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Carrying_off_the_Menorah_from_the_Temple_in_Jerusa lem_depicted_on_a_frieze_on_the_Arch_of_***us_in_t he_Forum_Romanum.JPG/576px-Carrying_off_the_Menorah_from_the_Temple_in_Jerusa lem_depicted_on_a_frieze_on_the_Arch_of_***us_in_t he_Forum_Romanum.JPG[/IMG]

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radix View Post
    Let's see, you want me to find you a garden, or a single stone or m****cripts thousands of years old. I am asking you to provide evidence of a civilization. I can provide evidence of a Jewish civilization.
    Still trying to dodge the claim you made.

    And still not able to support your claims. Typical. Keep dancing, Radix.

    Marvin
    “Impartiality is a pompous name for indifference, which is an elegant name for ignorance.”

    – G. K. Chesterton, The Speaker, 12/15/00

  22. #22
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    Still trying to dodge the claim you made.

    And still not able to support your claims. Typical. Keep dancing, Radix.

    Marvin
    Marvin there is absolutely no comparison between the evidence for the Bible verses the Book of Mormon. Why do you think that is?

  23. #23
    Radix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    Still trying to dodge the claim you made.

    And still not able to support your claims. Typical. Keep dancing, Radix.

    Marvin
    My only claim here is that the Jewish people did indeed exist in what we call ancient times. Now most education people would call this common sense. Only you would seem not to acknowledge this. Start using the eyes God gave you.

    It is pathetic I provide a reference for ancient Jews, you provide NOTHING valid for Nephites, and yet you claim I am unable to support anything. Your entire world rests on a dead con artist who made claims while holding a rock in a hat over his face. As a con artist is the center of your being, it provides some insight why you play these shallow games.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radix View Post
    My only claim here is that the Jewish people did indeed exist in what we call ancient times. Now most education people would call this common sense. Only you would seem not to acknowledge this. Start using the eyes God gave you.

    It is pathetic I provide a reference for ancient Jews, you provide NOTHING valid for Nephites, and yet you claim I am unable to support anything. Your entire world rests on a dead con artist who made claims while holding a rock in a hat over his face. As a con artist is the center of your being, it provides some insight why you play these shallow games.
    What is really pathetic is your continual running away from the claim that started this whole thing. I have even given you a reference and the complete post and yet you still avoid talking about your claim.

    Thanks for providing the evidence that you have no ability to back up your claims.

    Marvin

    PS Why is it when ever I try to get you to support your claim, you change the subject?
    “Impartiality is a pompous name for indifference, which is an elegant name for ignorance.”

    – G. K. Chesterton, The Speaker, 12/15/00

  25. #25
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    What is really pathetic is your continual running away from the claim that started this whole thing.
    Hey Marvin are you ever going to give us any proof for the Nephites living in the America?

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