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Thread: If the Golden Plates were made available…what would happen?

  1. #126
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdjhere View Post
    BigJulie said: Pa Pa, to add to your list--no ark of the covenant, no Urim and Thummin, no breastplate---all of these were artifacts Jewish theology.

    According to Joseph Smith, he had the Urim and the Thummin last so even he claims they existed becaused he used them in his translation of the BOM. So, LDS KNOW they existed, correct? So, even though we do not HAVE the Urim and Thummim, you can remove it from your "list."

    I ask for no artifact.. I don't ask for the gold plates.. All I ask is a m****cript of the BofM is the original language just like we have for the Bible.. Is that too much to ask? We have such for the Bible. They want to give the BofM equality with the real scripture in asking that I ask for the same evidence that is given for the Bible.. Show a m****cript of the original language that the Bible was written in. Let us have the same opportunity we have for the Bible to place the language in the context of the original. After all no matter how honest, no matter how hard a translator tries to hold the meaning of such a text something of the full meaning is always lost in a translation.. I ask them to produce it or admit that the BofM is a story invented by Joseph Smith from his exposure to the legends, stories, and out and out myths invented in his own mind..

    I don't see the LDS lining up to explain why a copy of the original language in unavailable. A simple rubbing of the pates could have produced it as quickly as a printing press can make copies of the set type used to publish a Sunday news paper in his era..IHS jim

  2. #127
    RealFakeHair
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    Default Oh, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    Great... I've been to plenty of digs in South America and have tons of Precolumbian artifacts from the Book of Mormon times (most from Peru). The average price I have put on them is about 2000$ I have some nice stone war club heads and stone throwing slings, used by the Lamanites, Lots of pottery and textiles from the Nephites etc... Care to purchase any? Which one would you like?
    I got $1.98 left, and I'll give it all for a sword of steel, or something.

  3. #128
    jdjhere
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    Good luck with that James... No one has still never found ANY documents written in "Reformed Egyptian" so again, Good Luck with that!

    Wikipedia says: According to the Book of Mormon, that scripture of the Latter Day Saint movement was originally written in reformed Egyptian characters on plates of "ore" by prophets living in the Western Hemisphere from perhaps as early as 2600 BC until as late as AD 421. Joseph Smith, Jr., the founder of the movement, published the Book of Mormon in 1830 as a translation of these golden plates. Scholarly reference works on languages do not, however, acknowledge the existence of either a "reformed Egyptian" language or "reformed Egyptian" script as it has been described in Mormon belief. No archaeological, linguistic, or other evidence of the use of Egyptian writing in ancient America has been discovered.
    Last edited by jdjhere; 03-06-2012 at 07:49 PM.

  4. #129
    Radix
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    No... what I am asking is, what would a Nephite artifact look like?
    How about in a full length metal book of some writing than can back up Joseph's doodles seen in those "Caractors." As you can imagine, the list can go on.

    And a recent discovery of an earliest known and undisturbed Christian tomb and bone box, close to the discovery of the Jesus tomb, lends support for the fact that the first tomb was probably real.
    My point was, that you guys want archeological evidence in order to prove something is true; however you will simply lable it a joke or attack the scholarship of experts if you don’t like the results.
    So what would be the point of providing you with any evidence then?
    Sad to see you have been somewhat suckered in by some other hacks. James Cameroon a movie producer (one whom can certainly do epic ones well) and the Naked Archaeologist (who is not really an archaeologist.) Their documentary here side stepped any process of peer review. The names Joseph, Jesus and Mary have been found at other grave sites as well, they were common names.

  5. #130
    jdjhere
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    TheWay stated in Post #78" I have some nice stone war club heads and stone throwing slings, used by the Lamanites, Lots of pottery and textiles from the Nephites ..."

    Ok, all side stepping, changing the subject, asking another question, ignoring and every other excuse anyone could ever possibly come up with, please answer the following question, TheWay:

    What is your undeniable EVIDENCE that these items belonged to a group of people called the Lamanites and Nephites?

    Wikipedia: According to the Book of Mormon, a religious text of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Nephite is a member of one of the four main groups of settlers of the ancient Americas. The other early settlers described in the Book of Mormon include the Lamanites, Jaredites and Mulekites. Some LDS scholars believe that the forebears of the Nephites settled somewhere in present-day Central America after departing Jerusalem. However, both the Smithsonian Ins***ution and the National Geographic Society have issued statements that they have seen no evidence to support these claims in the Book of Mormon.
    Last edited by jdjhere; 03-07-2012 at 03:06 PM.

  6. #131
    jdjhere
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    Helllooooo??? TheWay??? Is this going to be yet ANOTHER unanswered claim or what? Just please post your evidence when you get time. Thanks.

  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa Pa View Post
    Many in the anti-Mormon community have criticized the fact that the plates upon which the Book of Mormon were taken (translated), and that they were “taken”, is very convenient” for the Mormons, because they are not available for comparison, review, inspection, etc. But in reality it is not ‘very inconvenient” at all, but “very necessary”. I have given much thought to what arguments would be made if we did have the “plates”. Before listing any it is only (FAIR©) to note that we do not have (no one has) the “Stone Tablets” upon which were engraved by the “Hand of God” the Ten Commandments. Because the OT was p***ed down via “Oral Tradition” we do not have (no one has) any original m****cripts. Beyond the OT, there are missing m****cripts of the NT as well. Also the “famous” or “infamous” missing books…


    Note: Not all missing to all versions, but missing, or a more descriptive term may be “excluded”. Many scriptural books are alleged too have been written centuries after the advent of Christ. But returning to the main theme, what if we had the “plates of gold or br***”?

    This is my list; maybe some of you could add? In addition I would also like a list from those representing other organizations or interests to list what they would need to be satisfied. Including for example IRR©, President Rob Bowman or others.

    My list…

    No one can read this language it is made up!

    They have them but will not everyone see them…this already happens with many religious artifacts that are in the possession of others; made by those not allowed to see them.

    They have not been carbon dated.

    They have been carbon dated and scientists cannot agree.

    Mormons don’t have Scholars or Scientists, BYU only teaches Pseudoscience. This one may have merit?

    I don’t care what anyone says; I have not seen them!

    OK the comments made there on the plates are correct according to the inscription, but there is no evidence beyond written that Nephites and Laminites ever existed.

    The plates are plagiarized from the Bible.

    “A Bible, a Bible, we have got a Bible and there can be no other Bible”.
    There theology does not match orthodoxy and therefore it is false.

    It does no agree with our “Creeds”!

    They store them behind protective gl***, how do we know what it is? BTW, the Church is a con has the money to produce something and do this!

    No God would require obedience for salvation.

    I will add others as additional posts…

    My list for why they are not available…”all of the above”.

    Be serious and have fun.
    First of all, your claims that the OT artifacts mentioned possibly never existed are a moot point since your cult claims to believe the OT. Unless, of course,you Mormons are willing to stand up and say, "heck no, we don't believe the OT." We've had one of your own "scholars" come over to CARM, for instance, and make fun of believing in "talking donkeys" and other OT accounts. Even to the point of claiming that the OT has little historical value. If you wish to come out and state that you agree with those who denigrate the OT, fine. But Mormons who continuously belittle the OT, but p*** out KJV copies of the Bible which they claim to believe, are being hypocritical at the least in view of the enormous Mormon attack against the OT on forums such as this. I might point out that Jesus Christ believed the OT without equivocation and He rose from the dead. I'll stand with Christ.

    Furthermore, Smith was no fool. He knew that if his "gold plates" scheme was proven to be a hoax his whole religious system would fall. Thus, he covered up the plates (supposedly), and only allowed a few to "see" them, but all these witnesses (other than immediate family members) admitted they only saw the gold plates with their "spiritual eyses." This is related to the "third eye" belief prevalent in the nineteenth century. Then, when his "translation" from the altered Spaulding m****cript was completed, he had Mornoni fly down and grab the plates like some greedy McDonald's customer grabs a hamburger! Scoop it up, and Poof, they are gone. People that are not Mormons can see thru this silly fabrication, Mormons have to believe it (even if some doubt). I have no doubt that Cowdery fashioned some kind of prop (his father was a blacksmith and he knew the art) - Joseph probably persuaded him to do so, claiming it was necessary to promote belief, or some such tactic. Cowdery, who was in need of a *** and money was not above being persuaded. Read his history.

    And then the Moroni swooping scam - no plates - no way to either confirm or deny Smith's tall story. It all is based on faith in Joseph Smith, a "prophet" who used his power to seduce teenage girls, marry the wives of other men, trick his wife repeatedly, and rip off the finances of his followers to the point where he lived in a huge mansion in Nauvoo while many of his disciples had to do with clapboard shacks. To the point where he wore highly polished leather boots while his own sister's family went barefoot. Some prophet!

    Anybody who has studied the profiles of cult leaders knows that Jospeh Smith is a cl***ic example of someone who misused the credulity of uneducated 19th century followers in order to obtain riches and women - a cl***ic example of what cult leaders do!
    Last edited by Apologette; 03-14-2012 at 10:14 AM.

  8. #133
    jdjhere
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    TheWay stated in Post #78" I have some nice stone war club heads and stone throwing slings, used by the Lamanites, Lots of pottery and textiles from the Nephites ..."

    Ok, all side stepping, changing the subject, asking another question, ignoring and every other excuse anyone could ever possibly come up with, please answer the following question, TheWay:

    What is your undeniable EVIDENCE that these items belonged to a group of people called the Lamanites and Nephites?

    Wikipedia: According to the Book of Mormon, a religious text of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Nephite is a member of one of the four main groups of settlers of the ancient Americas. The other early settlers described in the Book of Mormon include the Lamanites, Jaredites and Mulekites. Some LDS scholars believe that the forebears of the Nephites settled somewhere in present-day Central America after departing Jerusalem. However, both the Smithsonian Ins***ution and the National Geographic Society have issued statements that they have seen no evidence to support these claims in the Book of Mormon.

    It has been a week, TheWay. Are you going to give us that evidence or are you just making claims you can not back up? Thanks.

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdjhere View Post
    TheWay stated in Post #78" I have some nice stone war club heads and stone throwing slings, used by the Lamanites, Lots of pottery and textiles from the Nephites ..."

    Ok, all side stepping, changing the subject, asking another question, ignoring and every other excuse anyone could ever possibly come up with, please answer the following question, TheWay:

    What is your undeniable EVIDENCE that these items belonged to a group of people called the Lamanites and Nephites?

    Wikipedia: According to the Book of Mormon, a religious text of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Nephite is a member of one of the four main groups of settlers of the ancient Americas. The other early settlers described in the Book of Mormon include the Lamanites, Jaredites and Mulekites. Some LDS scholars believe that the forebears of the Nephites settled somewhere in present-day Central America after departing Jerusalem. However, both the Smithsonian Ins***ution and the National Geographic Society have issued statements that they have seen no evidence to support these claims in the Book of Mormon.

    It has been a week, TheWay. Are you going to give us that evidence or are you just making claims you can not back up? Thanks.
    I guarantee that what (not) "The way" has are indigenous Indian artifacts, and have nothing to do with BoM Hebrews from Jersusalem who settled in the New World. Most Moromons simply refer to Indians as Lamanites due to their belief that Lamanites married the indigenous peoples. Of course, it has no validity to claim these artifacts are Lamanite, unless of course they have been examined by a non-biased (not Mormon) archaeological and anthropological team and declared to be authentic Lamanite artifacts. And of course, they haven't been, otherwise we would have seen such claims smeared all over the internet.

  10. #135
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radix View Post

    It is pathetic I provide a reference for ancient Jews, you provide NOTHING valid for Nephites,
    have the Mormons ever come forth with findings that they claim are proof of the nephites?

    I mean they crank out students from their higher schools, has one of these students managed to find some convincing proof of these people yet?

  11. #136
    RealFakeHair
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    Default that will never happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Hey Marvin are you ever going to give us any proof for the Nephites living in the America?
    I will hold my breath waiting

  12. #137
    alanmolstad
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    This is the very same topic that someone was reading on the other day that got me started thinking about what would go into making the golden Plates...

    The idea i had was that given the type of people that Mormons are, would it be all that hard to actually create some golden plates that could be accepted ?

    i think that's a good question.
    Now 1st off i admit that for any guy to actually try to make the golden plates he will need to have some free spending money on hand, as even the term "golden plates' tells us that at some point in this you are going to need some gold.

    and gold is not cheap.

    But if we had a supply and the expertise to build a set of Mormon golden plates, what else would be necessary in-order to get all Mormons to believe that were real?


    On my currently-running topic, Im going over the idea of what would be needed to make golden plates accepted....

  13. #138
    RealFakeHair
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    What I don't understand is why did the mormon god take back the golden mormon bible? If it were truely a history of the mormon jews crossing the seas to find a new promise land, and their invisible settlements then we should (All) be able to view this exciting peice of Joseph Smith jr. Imaginary mind.

  14. #139
    alanmolstad
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    the way i see it.....sooner or later any set of new golden Plates that you or I were to make, would also have to soon disappear.
    There is only so long you can maintain a cover story.

    And,.....by not having the plates around you switch from "defending" them to "promoting" their myth....

    Defending something like a set of golden Plates is tricky because no matter how good a set you have constructed there is always the chance you slipped-up and you will get caught.

    However once the Golden Plates are out of everyone's reach forever, then their legitimacy cant be attacked anymore.

    all your attackers are suddenly left with only their weak-looking "opinions" and you can stop worrying about the truth getting out.

    What you can then do is simply concern yourself now with promoting the myth about the plates...
    And that only takes one thing...

    A good story.

  15. #140
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    the way i see it.....sooner or later any set of new golden Plates that you or I were to make, would also have to soon disappear.
    There is only so long you can maintain a cover story.

    And,.....by not having the plates around you switch from "defending" them to "promoting" their myth....

    Defending something like a set of golden Plates is tricky because no matter how good a set you have constructed there is always the chance you slipped-up and you will get caught.

    However once the Golden Plates are out of everyone's reach forever, then their legitimacy cant be attacked anymore.

    all your attackers are suddenly left with only their weak-looking "opinions" and you can stop worrying about the truth getting out.

    What you can then do is simply concern yourself now with promoting the myth about the plates...
    And that only takes one thing...

    A good story.
    I guess because I grew up in and around religious con-men I was immediately turned off by the LDSinc. Claims of the Golden Plates story.

  16. #141
    alanmolstad
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    The idea I have been kicking around for a while is the idea of the 'sealed" Golden plates...

    The concept i had was that there would come out a story that some guy had "found" or been "given" a set of Mormon golden plates that no one has seen before, but that have some type of history within the story of Joe Smith.

    Some type of super-secret plates that a person could make that would be just what a lot of Mormons would think they should look like...
    And made out of a material that everyone expects them to be made out of.

    I was thinking about how to go about fooling all the Mormons in such a manner as they actually fool themselves and do all the work?

  17. #142
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    The idea I have been kicking around for a while is the idea of the 'sealed" Golden plates...

    The concept i had was that there would come out a story that some guy had "found" or been "given" a set of Mormon golden plates that no one has seen before, but that have some type of history within the story of Joe Smith.

    Some type of super-secret plates that a person could make that would be just what a lot of Mormons would think they should look like...
    And made out of a material that everyone expects them to be made out of.

    I was thinking about how to go about fooling all the Mormons in such a manner as they actually fool themselves and do all the work?
    A man by the name of Christopher Nemelka has published the sealed portion of the Book or Mormon and has also translated the 116 pages of missing m****cript Smith translated from the plates of Lehi and gave to Marti Harris for inspection. Mr. Nemelka teaches that John the Beloved and the Three Nephites use him to present their message to the World. He says that Joseph Smith, himself, gave Christopher the Gold Plates so that he could translate the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. He believes that in 1987 he was called, in the same manner as Joseph Smith, to share a message with the world.

    So why is it that the LDS call this man a false teacher, a false prophet? Doesn't his message have as much authority as the message Smith first brought to the world? The seal portion of the BofM is now available, translated by a man who has just as much authority to bring the seal portion to the world as Smith had to bring the unsealed portion i the first place.. How many LDS had even bothered to read this new "scripture"? How many LDS even know it exists? It can be read at http://www.marvelousworkandawonder.com/tsp/read_tsp.htm.. IHS jim

  18. #143
    alanmolstad
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    we should come out with the super-super sealed plates.

  19. #144
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    we should come out with the super-super sealed plates.
    I guess you could but like Smith Nemelka had to surrender the plates back to the "angel" that delivered them to him.. IHS jim

  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa Pa View Post
    Many in the anti-Mormon community have criticized the fact that the plates upon which the Book of Mormon were taken (translated), and that they were “taken”, is very convenient” for the Mormons, because they are not available for comparison, review, inspection, etc. But in reality it is not ‘very inconvenient” at all, but “very necessary”. I have given much thought to what arguments would be made if we did have the “plates”. Before listing any it is only (FAIR©) to note that we do not have (no one has) the “Stone Tablets” upon which were engraved by the “Hand of God” the Ten Commandments. Because the OT was p***ed down via “Oral Tradition” we do not have (no one has) any original m****cripts. Beyond the OT, there are missing m****cripts of the NT as well. Also the “famous” or “infamous” missing books…


    Note: Not all missing to all versions, but missing, or a more descriptive term may be “excluded”. Many scriptural books are alleged too have been written centuries after the advent of Christ. But returning to the main theme, what if we had the “plates of gold or br***”?

    This is my list; maybe some of you could add? In addition I would also like a list from those representing other organizations or interests to list what they would need to be satisfied. Including for example IRR©, President Rob Bowman or others.

    My list…

    No one can read this language it is made up!

    They have them but will not everyone see them…this already happens with many religious artifacts that are in the possession of others; made by those not allowed to see them.

    They have not been carbon dated.

    They have been carbon dated and scientists cannot agree.

    Mormons don’t have Scholars or Scientists, BYU only teaches Pseudoscience. This one may have merit?

    I don’t care what anyone says; I have not seen them!

    OK the comments made there on the plates are correct according to the inscription, but there is no evidence beyond written that Nephites and Laminites ever existed.

    The plates are plagiarized from the Bible.

    “A Bible, a Bible, we have got a Bible and there can be no other Bible”.
    There theology does not match orthodoxy and therefore it is false.

    It does no agree with our “Creeds”!

    They store them behind protective gl***, how do we know what it is? BTW, the Church is a con has the money to produce something and do this!

    No God would require obedience for salvation.

    I will add others as additional posts…

    My list for why they are not available…”all of the above”.

    Be serious and have fun.
    I think close examination of the "plates" would prove they were forged from tin, probably by Pratt or Cowdery - both knew blacksmithing. I doubt there were any etchings on them, but maybe they'd still be covered by a cloth. When a Harvard scientist got a look at them, and told the world they were worthless tin plates, there would be a m*** exodus from the Mormon cult. Jeff would probably remain, shouting something about "Calvin will never get me." But, in the end, there are no plates, and Smith was a liar!
    Oath formerly taken by Mormons promising not to reveal secret Mormon temple rituals: "Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field."

  21. #146
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologette View Post
    I think close examination of the "plates" would prove they were forged from tin, probably by Pratt or Cowdery - both knew blacksmithing. I doubt there were any etchings on them, but maybe they'd still be covered by a cloth. When a Harvard scientist got a look at them, and told the world they were worthless tin plates, there would be a m*** exodus from the Mormon cult. Jeff would probably remain, shouting something about "Calvin will never get me." But, in the end, there are no plates, and Smith was a liar!
    God never hide his word before Smith came along.. He spoke directly to the Children of Israel as He spoke His Law to them..

    Deut 4:11-13
    And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.
    And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
    And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.


    They also SAW the tablets on which God by His own hand wrote the Law. And the Gold plates had to be hidden? WHY? IHS jim
    Last edited by James Banta; 02-27-2014 at 10:16 PM.

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