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Thread: If the Golden Plates were made available…what would happen?

  1. #76
    RealFakeHair
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    Default I saw that sign.

    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    So basically you want a "Nephi slept here" sign. Well... there is not one.
    Ironically though there has been found a "Jesus sleeps here" bone box which has been found, that actually contains bones.
    The first response by everyone was that it was a fake.
    The only problem is that last week they found the earliest known writing by a Christian, on another bonebox nearby that could not be a fake. They say that this find leads credence to the fact that the, "Jesus son of Joseph bonebox" was not a fake.

    So the problem for you is; do you believe the evidence that is right in front of you, that Jesus' bones have been found, or do you discount the evidence and go by your faith that it has to be some other Jesus son of Joseph and Mary?
    Nephi slept here, at the hotel 6 3/4, or something.
    I like to play games too, but I like money more.
    Money, I wonder what price you could put on any Pre-Columbus artifacts from the Book of Mormon, found in .

  2. #77
    Radix
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    So basically you want a "Nephi slept here" sign. Well... there is not one.
    Ironically though there has been found a "Jesus sleeps here" bone box which has been found, that actually contains bones.
    The first response by everyone was that it was a fake.
    The only problem is that last week they found the earliest known writing by a Christian, on another bonebox nearby that could not be a fake. They say that this find leads credence to the fact that the, "Jesus son of Joseph bonebox" was not a fake.

    So the problem for you is; do you believe the evidence that is right in front of you, that Jesus' bones have been found, or do you discount the evidence and go by your faith that it has to be some other Jesus son of Joseph and Mary?
    So are you admitting there is no proof for Nephites or just no proof for Nephi himself? If you are saying there is no proof for Nephites I will go ahead and say thank you. You are the first here to admit it.

    Concerning a bonebox with the bones of Jesus, please provide the reference. James Cameron and Simcha Jacobovici provided a joke of a film a few years ago. Of course their idea of scholarship was sorely lacking. It would have never stood a second in an academic peer review process. Just curious if your rehashing that garbage again.
    Last edited by Radix; 03-01-2012 at 06:32 AM.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    Nephi slept here, at the hotel 6 3/4, or something.
    I like to play games too, but I like money more.
    Money, I wonder what price you could put on any Pre-Columbus artifacts from the Book of Mormon, found in .
    Great... I've been to plenty of digs in South America and have tons of Precolumbian artifacts from the Book of Mormon times (most from Peru). The average price I have put on them is about 2000$ I have some nice stone war club heads and stone throwing slings, used by the Lamanites, Lots of pottery and textiles from the Nephites etc... Care to purchase any? Which one would you like?

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radix View Post
    So are you admitting there is no proof for Nephites or just no proof for Nephi himself? If you are saying there is no proof for Nephites I will go ahead and say thank you. You are the first her to admit it.
    No... what I am asking is, what would a Nephite artifact look like?
    Quote Originally Posted by Radix View Post
    Concerning a bonebox with the bones of Jesus, please provide the reference. James Cameron and Simcha Jacobovici provided a joke of a film a few years ago. Of course their idea of scholarship was sorely lacking. It would have never stood a second in an academic peer review process. Just curious if your rehashing that garbage again.
    And a recent discovery of an earliest known and undisturbed Christian tomb and bone box, close to the discovery of the Jesus tomb, lends support for the fact that the first tomb was probably real.
    My point was, that you guys want archeological evidence in order to prove something is true; however you will simply lable it a joke or attack the scholarship of experts if you don’t like the results.
    So what would be the point of providing you with any evidence then?

  5. #80
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    No... what I am asking is, what would a Nephite artifact look like?
    How about any ancient writings from either the Lamanites or Nephites.

  6. #81
    Russianwolfe
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdjhere View Post
    Honestly, I think if an entire RACE of people called "Nephites" existed that it would not be that big a challenge to find SOME KIND of substantial evidence for that existence. Did they have tools, money, buildings or structures, clothing, weapons, boats, jewelry, historical books kept, other races of people mentioning them in their books, legends or lores? You would think we could find something of them and YES, why NOT by name? We found someone names Jesus's burial box....correct?
    Show me from the Book of Mormon where you get the idea that the Nephites were an entire race.

    Jews live in New York and Herman Wouk has written about them in many of his books. If you only have those books to go by, it would seem that the Jews dominated New York. He only mentions the goyim in p***ing and they almost never play a major role. But, according to your logic, the Jews are an 'entire race' that occupied New York and domintated life there.

    So, please, provide me with references from the Book of Mormon that lead you to conclude that the Nephites were an entire race.

    Marvin

  7. #82
    Radix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml

    Evidences of the Book of Mormon

    Dr. Peterson has always put a lot store by Book of Mormon Witnesses, which, after reading a book by that ***le, have to say is pretty good evidence.

    http://the-book-of-mormon.com/

    Archaeological Evidence and the Book of Mormon by Michael R. Ash

    This was the video I was speaking about earlier, regarding Book of Mormon lands.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNcUqmRq9KY
    Again Libby, nothing in ANY of those referenced that actually supports that Nephites ever existed. All you and LDS have to support that is the word of a man with a rock in a hat pulled over his face.

    Notice the favorite LDS word "plausible." Everything they presents is "plausible." I guess one could say that until we dig up and take the moon completely apart, it is "plausible" for tall Puritan men to be living on the moon as Smith said as well.

  8. #83
    jdjhere
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    Well, at least the last video MENTIONS the Nephites (and Lamanites wanting to wipe out the Nephites for that matter!). Unfortunately, this is all just speculation by LDS that all this stuff actually happened and that these people were actually CALLED Nephites. The evidence I would like to see is something from this area that PROVES the Nephites even existed. Does the BOM say how many Nephites that there were? To give them an actual NAME I ***umed they were a RACE of people. How many were there (roughly??)

    TheWAy stated: "I have some nice stone war club heads and stone throwing slings, used by the Lamanites, Lots of pottery and textiles from the Nephites..."

    Now THIS is interesting. Can you provide scientific evidence OUTSIDE LDS circles that prove these artifacts belonged to the Lamanites and Nephites and not other people that inhabited this area? Olmecs, Aztecs, Toltecs and Mayans are mentioned as being in this area but there is no mention by name of Nephites or Lamanites. Is it the OFFICIAL position of the LDS Church now that this area IS the actual area that the BOM speaks of is around Teotihuacan on the Yucatan Peninsula? It also mentions that the great war at Cumorah took place around this area (at least I think that is what they said??). Any idea where this was? Is it now the OFFICIAL position of the LDS Church that the Cumorah in NY is NOT the Cumorah that the great battle took place? Thanks.

    Note: Wikipedia for Nephites: Some LDS scholars believe that the forebears of the Nephites settled somewhere in present-day Central America after departing Jerusalem. However, both the Smithsonian Ins***ution and the National Geographic Society have issued statements that they have seen no evidence to support these claims in the Book of Mormon.
    Last edited by jdjhere; 03-01-2012 at 11:51 AM.

  9. #84
    jdjhere
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    The BOM in chapter 6:

    11 And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.

    12 And we also beheld the ten thousand of my people who were led by my son Moroni.

    13 And behold, the ten thousand of Gidgiddonah had fallen, and he also in the midst.

    14 And Lamah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Gilgal had fallen with his ten thousand; and Limhah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Jeneum had fallen with his ten thousand; and Cumenihah, and Moronihah, and Antionum, and Shiblom, and Shem, and Josh, had fallen with their ten thousand each.

    15 And it came to p*** that there were ten more who did fall by the sword, with their ten thousand each; yea, even all my people, save it were those twenty and four who were with me, and also a few who had escaped into the south countries, and a few who had deserted over unto the Lamanites, had fallen; and their flesh, and bones, and blood lay upon the face of the earth, being left by the hands of those who slew them to molder upon the land, and to crumble and to return to their mother earth.

    So it was 130 or 140 Thousand Nephites who were killed by the Lamanites? I am just trying to get an accurate number. Thanks.
    Last edited by jdjhere; 03-01-2012 at 11:50 AM.

  10. #85
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radix View Post
    Again Libby, nothing in ANY of those referenced that actually supports that Nephites ever existed. All you and LDS have to support that is the word of a man with a rock in a hat pulled over his face.

    Notice the favorite LDS word "plausible." Everything they presents is "plausible." I guess one could say that until we dig up and take the moon completely apart, it is "plausible" for tall Puritan men to be living on the moon as Smith said as well.
    Radix, I am not saying there is absolute proof. What I object to, is critics saying there is NONE. That's simply not true. If you study it carefully, there is actually quite a bit of evidence that this book is an ancient document. And, it's not at ALL likely that Joseph Smith wrote it. Even scholars outside of Mormonism admit that.

    Also, the thing about Quaker men on the moon, likely, did not come from Joseph Smith. That's just another urban myth that critics like to throw around.

  11. #86
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Radix, I am not saying there is absolute proof.
    Libby there is no real proof. You said that your role here is to propagate truth. Your are not standing by your promise.

  12. #87
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post

    Also, the thing about Quaker men on the moon, likely, did not come from Joseph Smith. That's just another urban myth that critics like to throw around.
    That came from Brigham Young and it NOT an urban myth. Lets see you stick with truth. How about it?

  13. #88
    jdjhere
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    Libby, can I ask you a personal question about why you are not LDS anymore? I understand you are trying to be fair and seem like you are a peacekeeper and just want everbody to get along. That is fine to a certain point but Truth is Truth and IF the whole LDS belief system is made up, it is a lie and should not be believed. When you say things like it is doubtful that Joseph Smith even wrote the BOM it makes me wonder where you stand. If Joseph Smith did not write the BOM, who did? (Solomon Spaulding's M****cript Found is my guess).What was your spritual event you had happen as an LDS you mentioned? I am curious and its OK if you do not want to answer.

  14. #89
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    That came from Brigham Young and it NOT an urban myth. Lets see you stick with truth. How about it?
    Billy, stop inferring that I'm a liar. I have heard this Quaker thing attributed to Joseph Smith and that is the truth. The claim was in Oliver Huntington's journal, which was told to him by someone named Philo Dibble, so it's, basically, third hand information, which is why it is not considered reliable, by some.

    But, the fact is, this belief about people inhabiting the moon was very common, even among scientists of the day. So, it wouldn't be, particularly, surprising that Joseph and Brigham both believed that. Most likely, so did most of your Evangelical pastors of that day.

    http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Moon_inhabited

  15. #90
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdjhere View Post
    Libby, can I ask you a personal question about why you are not LDS anymore? I understand you are trying to be fair and seem like you are a peacekeeper and just want everbody to get along. That is fine to a certain point but Truth is Truth and IF the whole LDS belief system is made up, it is a lie and should not be believed. When you say things like it is doubtful that Joseph Smith even wrote the BOM it makes me wonder where you stand. If Joseph Smith did not write the BOM, who did? (Solomon Spaulding's M****cript Found is my guess).What was your spritual event you had happen as an LDS you mentioned? I am curious and its OK if you do not want to answer.
    I don't mind, jd, except I'd rather not talk about my spiritual experiences with the Book of Mormon.

    I think "truth", especially in regards to spiritual matters, can be very subjective and even elusive on this physical plane. We live in a world of dualities, which makes it difficult for us to know or understand God. Plus, God does, indeed, work in mysterious ways.

    I don't know who wrote the Book of Mormon. It may be exactly what it is claimed to be. It may be a true history of some people that actually inhabited this planet...or it may be a work of fiction, with some inspiration here and there. I'm not interested in judging it. It's existence has moved many people closer to God and encouraged them to follow Jesus and try and live godly lives, so that validates it, IMHO.

    As for why I am not LDS...for me this religion (the LDS Church) was a springboard back to a path that is better suited for me. I started on my current path, many years ago, but I wasn't quite ready for it, then.

  16. #91
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Billy, stop inferring that I'm a liar.
    If you are telling me the truth then why did you call it a urban myth when you know full well that Brigham Young made this statement?

  17. #92
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    If you are telling me the truth then why did you call it a urban myth when you know full well that Brigham Young made this statement?
    Because, I didn't "know full well" that Brigham had said that. My recollection was that it had been Joseph Smith (which it was..or at least that is the claim) and I also recollected that some LDS, writing on this subject, believed the information to be "iffy" and perhaps untrue.

    You claimed it wasn't from Joseph Smith. Were you "lying"??

  18. #93
    Radix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Radix, I am not saying there is absolute proof. What I object to, is critics saying there is NONE. That's simply not true. If you study it carefully, there is actually quite a bit of evidence that this book is an ancient document. And, it's not at ALL likely that Joseph Smith wrote it. Even scholars outside of Mormonism admit that.

    Also, the thing about Quaker men on the moon, likely, did not come from Joseph Smith. That's just another urban myth that critics like to throw around.
    Libby, there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE for Nephites. Just because native American Indians lived here does not automatically make them Nephites because Joseph Smith said so. There is nada, nothing to back up the existence of Nephites. Only wishful thinking superimposed onto the native American people.

  19. #94
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radix View Post
    Libby, there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE for Nephites. Just because native American Indians lived here does not automatically make them Nephites because Joseph Smith said so. There is nada, nothing to back up the existence of Nephites. Only wishful thinking superimposed onto the native American people.
    I'm not really arguing that there is "evidence for Nephites". I am arguing evidence that the Book of Mormon may, indeed, be an ancient document, and that the existence of Nephites is, at least, plausible, even though there may not, yet, be physical proof. (Some believe there is actual physical proof, as well, though)..

    But, to try and argue that there is NO evidence for the Book of Mormon, whatsoever, is just plainly untrue.

  20. #95
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Because, I didn't "know full well" that Brigham had said that. My recollection was that it had been Joseph Smith (which it was..or at least that is the claim) and I also recollected that some LDS, writing on this subject, believed the information to be "iffy" and perhaps untrue.
    So if you were unclear why did you say it was an urban myth?

    Libby you are not promoting truth like you claimed that you were doing on this site. You are simply defending the false teachings of Mormonism tooth and nail like I have said about you all along.

  21. #96
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So if you were unclear why did you say it was an urban myth?
    Some LDS do believe it's in the realm of "urban myth" and it may very well be. There is no positive proof that JS ever said anything like that. There is hearsay, third hand, from one person.

    Libby you are not promoting truth like you claimed that you were doing on this site. You are simply defending the false teachings of Mormonism tooth and nail like I have said about you all along.
    And, as you have been "all along", you are mistaken.

  22. #97
    Radix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I'm not really arguing that there is "evidence for Nephites". I am arguing evidence that the Book of Mormon may, indeed, be an ancient document, and that the existence of Nephites is, at least, plausible, even though there may not, yet, be physical proof. (Some believe there is actual physical proof, as well, though)..

    But, to try and argue that there is NO evidence for the Book of Mormon, whatsoever, is just plainly untrue.
    It is ALL speculation when relating real facts to the Book of Mormon. No one outside the LDS church has even a moment's thought of giving the Book of Mormon an iota of credibility.

    We know the Jewish people are legit. Not so with Nephites.
    We know where several cities of the Bible are located. We know the locations (of cities specific to the Book of Mormon) of NONE of the BofM cities. None of them.
    We have information outside the Bible it self confirming the existence of several of the people mentioned. No proof for any of the BofM folks. Individual or nations. While there is proof of pre Colombian trans Atlantic travel, that dose not cons***ute proof for the BofM.
    There is evidence of several native languages, nothing is similar to those doodles by Joseph Smith provided to Martin Harris.
    This list can go on and on.

  23. #98
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Some LDS do believe it's in the realm of "urban myth" and it may very well be. There is no positive proof that JS ever said anything like that. There is hearsay, third hand, from one person.
    We have the statement by Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses. Wake up Libby what on earth are you trying to pull here anyway?

  24. #99
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    And, as you have been "all along", you are mistaken.
    I am still puzzled by what you think you are accomplishing with your posts here on this board. IMO you certainly are not helping Mormonism in any way but rather you are hurting their cause. The only possible reason that I can see is that you think in the back of your mind that Mormonism might possibly be true and you feel guilty by your posts in the past that criticized Mormonism.

  25. #100
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radix View Post
    It is ALL speculation when relating real facts to the Book of Mormon. No one outside the LDS church has even a moment's thought of giving the Book of Mormon an iota of credibility.
    Actually, I know of it least one Baptist Minister who believes it is true, plus many in his congregation. They worship with RLDS Mormons fairly often. They are a charismatic group.

    It may be speculation, but it is backed up with evidence (some of which I have presented here..and there is much more). It's not just pure speculation.

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