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Thread: If the Golden Plates were made available…what would happen?

  1. #101
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    We have the statement by Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses. Wake up Libby what on earth are you trying to pull here anyway?
    What statement, Billy? I know Brigham believed it, but did he attribute it to Joseph Smith? If he did, I was unaware of that.

  2. #102
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I am still puzzled by what you think you are accomplishing with your posts here on this board. IMO you certainly are not helping Mormonism in any way but rather you are hurting their cause. The only possible reason that I can see is that you think in the back of your mind that Mormonism might possibly be true and you feel guilty by your posts in the past that criticized Mormonism.
    Amateur psychologist? What do you think you are accomplishing here, Billy?

    I don't feel guilty, but I do believe I was, somewhat, guilty of posting some things against Mormonism that were not strictly accurate.

    Critics are usually guilty of making much of things that are really not that important (like this whole Quakers on the Moon thing). That was something I recognized in myself that I didn't feel good about.

    As for the truth, there is most definitely some truth in Mormonism and I believe it is just as valid of a religious practice as most. I think people are wasting their time in a very negative pursuit against a religion that has actually created a lot of good in this world.

    But, I understand the critics point of view, as well. They believe these people are going to burn in some eternal hell. I think that is a highly erroneous belief...but, if you're stuck there, I understand it is the guiding force. (Most unfortunate, IMHO)

  3. #103
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    What statement, Billy? I know Brigham believed it, but did he attribute it to Joseph Smith? If he did, I was unaware of that.
    Quaker men statement was from Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses.

    ". . .Brigham Young expanded on the teaching that the Sun was inhabited.

    "Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?... when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ******** in regard to them as the most ******** of their fathers. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain. It was made to give light to those who dwell upon it, and to other planets; and so will this earth when it is celestialized".8. . ."
    Brigham Young, July 24, 1870, Journal of Discourses 13:271
    http://www.mrm.org/moon-men


    This was also attributed to Joseph Smith

    ". . .According to a Mormon-friendly and official Church-published source, Joseph Smith taught that the moon was inhabited by people that dressed like Quakers. With Philo Dibble, a close ***ociate with Joseph Smith, as his source, Oliver B. Huntington wrote with significant detail:

    "The inhabitants of the moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the earth, being about 6 feet in height. They dress very much like the Quaker style and are quite general in style or the one fashion of dress. They live to be very old; coming generally, near a thousand years. This is the description of them as given by Joseph the Seer, and he could 'See' whatever he asked the Father in the name of Jesus to see"1
    Huntington was quoted in the Young Woman's Journal, which "was adopted as the official magazine for the Young Ladies Mutual Improvement ***ociation in 1897."2. . ."
    http://www.mrm.org/moon-men

  4. #104
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I don't feel guilty, but I do believe I was, somewhat, guilty of posting some things against Mormonism that were not strictly accurate.
    Now you are promoting things that are not accurate. But you don't seem to have a problem with that I guess.

  5. #105
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Critics are usually guilty of making much of things that are really not that important (like this whole Quakers on the Moon thing).
    I usually don't make a big deal about these sorts of things but they are certainly important because a so called prophet of God (both JS and BY) both promoted these completely foolish things which shows that they are leading people astray from the truth. One of many inaccurate things that they promoted. Yet you claim to be non Mormon and you try and support these false teachers.

  6. #106
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Now you are promoting things that are not accurate. But you don't seem to have a problem with that I guess.
    What have I said that was inaccurate? I explained why I called the statement about Joseph Smith an "urban myth".

    I've never said a thing about Brigham. You brought him into it.

    If most people in that day, including scientists, believed that, why would it be surprising that Brigham believed it? Do you think past prophets never believed in any of the supers***ions or erroneous beliefs of their culture?

    Besides which, I am not coming from the perspective that Joseph Smith or Brigham Young were "prophets".

  7. #107
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Besides which, I am not coming from the perspective that Joseph Smith or Brigham Young were "prophets".
    if they were not prophets then the were complete liars and you are telling me that you are defending these guys?

  8. #108
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    if they were not prophets then the were complete liars and you are telling me that you are defending these guys?
    I don't hold to your black and white thinking, Billy.

    I am pretty sure they thought they were prophets, and so do a lot of other people (millions).

    Just because you or I don't believe it, doesn't, necessarily, follow that they were "complete liars". I think they were mistaken about a LOT of things, but I believe they also hit on quite a bit of truth. (A lot more than Calvin)..

  9. #109
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I don't hold to your black and white thinking, Billy.

    I am pretty sure they thought they were prophets, and so do a lot of other people (millions).
    Libby some things are black and white. Either there us a God or there is not. Either a person (such as Joseph Smith or Brigham Young) was a true prophet or a false prophet. You believe that they were false prophets yet you support and encourage people to believe these false prophets. Do you think that you can justify before men or God why you would encourage others to believe the teachings of false prophets?

  10. #110
    Radix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Actually, I know of it least one Baptist Minister who believes it is true, plus many in his congregation. They worship with RLDS Mormons fairly often. They are a charismatic group.

    It may be speculation, but it is backed up with evidence (some of which I have presented here..and there is much more). It's not just pure speculation.
    Libby, in order for it to be more than speculation, something must actually connect the dots here with more then just a plausible theory or ***umption. Until any of that evidence has a clear connection, then it is ONLY SPECULATION and nothing more than that.

    Any idea if that Baptist minister has anything other than speculation to determine if the BofM is true? If not, then he has been conned as well. But for the sake of discussion here, I should have said that no one in the academic arena (outside of LDS themselves) believes any of the so called BofM evidences actually can be taken seriously.

  11. #111
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Libby some things are black and white. Either there us a God or there is not. Either a person (such as Joseph Smith or Brigham Young) was a true prophet or a false prophet. You believe that they were false prophets yet you support and encourage people to believe these false prophets. Do you think that you can justify before men or God why you would encourage others to believe the teachings of false prophets?
    I don't believe they were "false prophets", Billy. I encourage people to find the good, wherever it may be, and leave whatever is not good by the wayside. I encourage people to utilize whatever it is that brings them closer to God, and makes them feel his Presence in their lives.

    Some basic truths are black and white, yes, but most things are not as black and white as you like to make them (IMHO).
    Last edited by Libby; 03-02-2012 at 01:34 PM.

  12. #112
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radix View Post
    Libby, in order for it to be more than speculation, something must actually connect the dots here with more then just a plausible theory or ***umption. Until any of that evidence has a clear connection, then it is ONLY SPECULATION and nothing more than that.

    Any idea if that Baptist minister has anything other than speculation to determine if the BofM is true? If not, then he has been conned as well. But for the sake of discussion here, I should have said that no one in the academic arena (outside of LDS themselves) believes any of the so called BofM evidences actually can be taken seriously.
    The Baptist Minister has a Holy Spirit confirmation of the book. Bottom line, that is what is important.

    As for speculation, as I've already said, there is a difference between "pure" speculation and speculation with some evidence to back it up. A lot of thought and study has gone into the Book of Mormon, and there are many indications (evidences) that this book may be ancient scripture.

  13. #113
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I don't believe they were "false prophets", Billy.
    So you believe that Joseph and Brigham were true prophets?

  14. #114
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    What do you think you are accomplishing here, Billy?
    Pointing out how silly your arguments are so that others who may be searching will not end up mixed up in this false religion. I am under no illusion that you or the hard core LDS posters will ever leave behind you current beliefs.

  15. #115
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Pointing out how silly your arguments are so that others who may be searching will not end up mixed up in this false religion. I am under no illusion that you or the hard core LDS posters will ever leave behind you current beliefs.
    Anyone's religious beliefs can be made to appear "silly"...even yours, Billy.

    Bottom line, God only cares about what is in our hearts. Our love for him..and for one another.

  16. #116
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Anyone's religious beliefs can be made to appear "silly"...even yours, Billy.
    I said arguments not beliefs. You seem to believe mormonism is true yet you reject it. You believe the Bible but reject its teachings. You bounce from one religious belief to another and now you are Hindu yet you call yourself Christian. I am glad that you are here because you are doing more damage to Mormonism than any Mormon could do.

  17. #117
    Radix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    The Baptist Minister has a Holy Spirit confirmation of the book. Bottom line, that is what is important.

    As for speculation, as I've already said, there is a difference between "pure" speculation and speculation with some evidence to back it up. A lot of thought and study has gone into the Book of Mormon, and there are many indications (evidences) that this book may be ancient scripture.
    Need something more than a confirmation of the Holy Spirit here Libby. The Holy Spirit has confirmed to me that the BofM is false. In addition to my spirit, the Holy Spirit has allowed me with my mind to confirm this as well.

    Despite your desire for it to mean something more, there are no dots of reality connecting Nephites with native American people. It is not my fault this is the case, it is just the way it is.

  18. #118
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I said arguments not beliefs. You seem to believe mormonism is true yet you reject it. You believe the Bible but reject its teachings. You bounce from one religious belief to another and now you are Hindu yet you call yourself Christian. I am glad that you are here because you are doing more damage to Mormonism than any Mormon could do.
    The arguments are about beliefs, Billy. There is a difference between "believing Mormonism" and finding some truth and value in it.

    I am a Hindu-Christian.

    Why are you attacking me, personally?
    Last edited by Libby; 03-02-2012 at 05:23 PM.

  19. #119
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radix View Post
    Need something more than a confirmation of the Holy Spirit here Libby. The Holy Spirit has confirmed to me that the BofM is false. In addition to my spirit, the Holy Spirit has allowed me with my mind to confirm this as well.
    Did you pray about it? Most Evangelicals will not, y/k? They don't think it's necessary. I'm not going to argue for or against this Baptist Minister. Neither you nor I can know what is in his heart or what his spiritual experiences were.

    Despite your desire for it to mean something more, there are no dots of reality connecting Nephites with native American people. It is not my fault this is the case, it is just the way it is.
    I have no desire for Mormonism to be true or false. I am only relating what I know of the very real work that has been done on the Book of Mormon. I know Ev's, typically, turn their back on it, so I'm not surprised at the resistance. But, evidence is there, none-the-less.

    I'm going to leave this board, for now, as (per usual) the arguments are becoming circular. Take good care, Radix. God bless.

  20. #120
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    The arguments are about beliefs, Billy.
    It is about YOUR arguments Libby. Here is what I am hearing you say. I don't believe mormonism but you are defending the truthfulness of mormonism. You don't believe that Joseph was a true prophet but you defend his false teachings. This type of argument makes no sense at all. It is like a defense attorney saying that his client is guilty but should be judged not guilty.

  21. #121
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I have no desire for Mormonism to be true or false.
    Then why the need to constantly defend it especially given the fact that you claim not to believe it?

  22. #122
    Radix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Did you pray about it? Most Evangelicals will not, y/k? They don't think it's necessary. I'm not going to argue for or against this Baptist Minister. Neither you nor I can know what is in his heart or what his spiritual experiences were.



    I have no desire for Mormonism to be true or false. I am only relating what I know of the very real work that has been done on the Book of Mormon. I know Ev's, typically, turn their back on it, so I'm not surprised at the resistance. But, evidence is there, none-the-less.

    I'm going to leave this board, for now, as (per usual) the arguments are becoming circular. Take good care, Radix. God bless.
    I pray for the Lord to help me love Him with all my heart, soul, body and mind. I pray for His constant guidance and wisdom. Do I have to pray about everything? No. Things God makes obvious, I see no reason to pray about. Do I need to pray to God to know the sky is blue? Of course not. I have asked to correct me if I am wrong and to correct any of my misguided thinking.

    Concerning the Baptist minister, I am not questioning his heart, I am questioning his mind. If he has no reasonable facts, then I can **** off his well intentioned, but misguided acceptance of a false story.

    I notice your resistance to avoid dealing with the facts that there are no connecting points of reality concerning Nephites and native American Indians. In your heart I am sure your trying to be open minded, but you have yet to provide any evidence any one with an open mind can call reasonable legit.
    Last edited by Radix; 03-03-2012 at 06:21 AM.

  23. #123
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Pa Pa, to add to your list--no ark of the covenant, no Urim and Thummin, no breastplate---all of these were artifacts Jewish theology.
    None of these things claim to be the word of God.. The BofM does.. I don't need the actual plates. I don't need a word perfect copy of the writings on the plates. I do require the same level of originality as we have for the Bible.. I would like to have a copy of the BofM in the original language.. But no that is asking way too much.. That is holding it to the same level as I do the Bible but when that is asked what do I get? "A Bible a Bible we have got a Bible", or "I have a testimony".. Such feelings just don't come up to the same level of scholarship we have for the Bible if it could then we can talk about the BofM being scripture.. But this translation only nonsense that came from Smith just doesn't measure up to the same level of scholarship that is available in the Bible.. So come up with a original language copy of the plates or stop telling us that the translation of the BofM is in any way dependable..

    Since we have copies of the original language of the Bible not is not to much ask that same evidence for the BofM.. The thing is Smith never had such a writing available to him.. Not copy on paper, and not an original on metal.. It just never existed at all.. IHS jim

  24. #124
    Radix
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    None of these things claim to be the word of God.. The BofM does.. I don't need the actual plates. I don't need a word perfect copy of the writings on the plates. I do require the same level of originality as we have for the Bible.. I would like to have a copy of the BofM in the original language.. But no that is asking way too much.. That is holding it to the same level as I do the Bible but when that is asked what do I get? "A Bible a Bible we have got a Bible", or "I have a testimony".. Such feelings just don't come up to the same level of scholarship we have for the Bible if it could then we can talk about the BofM being scripture.. But this translation only nonsense that came from Smith just doesn't measure up to the same level of scholarship that is available in the Bible.. So come up with a original language copy of the plates or stop telling us that the translation of the BofM is in any way dependable..

    Since we have copies of the original language of the Bible not is not to much ask that same evidence for the BofM.. The thing is Smith never had such a writing available to him.. Not copy on paper, and not an original on metal.. It just never existed at all.. IHS jim
    Good points as usual Jim. They ask us to produce a garden, but they cannot even produce the original language the BofM was translated from. Smith has even made it easy by way of the "caractors" he provided Harris, but nothing like it has ever surfaced.

    Smith translating an unknown language is like a snake oil doctor claiming to have the cure of an unknown disease.

  25. #125
    jdjhere
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    BigJulie said: Pa Pa, to add to your list--no ark of the covenant, no Urim and Thummin, no breastplate---all of these were artifacts Jewish theology.

    According to Joseph Smith, he had the Urim and the Thummin last so even he claims they existed becaused he used them in his translation of the BOM. So, LDS KNOW they existed, correct? So, even though we do not HAVE the Urim and Thummim, you can remove it from your "list."

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