When Jesus said "...it is finished...", what does this statement mean to a Catholic?
Blessings...Dmarie
How does a Catholic explain John 19:30?
When Jesus said "...it is finished...", what does this statement mean to a Catholic?
Blessings...Dmarie
It is finished is refering to the passover sacrafise which was himself. Obviously he wasn't finished with what he had to do because he still hadn't been raised from the dead. As Paul puts it in Rom 4:25 He was raised for our justification.
Then why didn't Jesus just wait?
Hi tealblue.
Thank you so much for your response.
Then, if Jesus wasn't really finished, why didn't He just wait to make His proclamation "...it is finished....", until after His resurrection?
Blessings...Dmarie
Depends on what the "IT" he was refering to really means. I know to an evangelical the it means "his finished work on the cross." I don't think Jesus was intending when he said it is finished to imply that at all. He was simply saying the passover sacrafise is finished. He still had to be raised. Paul I think makes this perfectly clear. Yes it is christ's death which makes way for our propitiation for our sins as john says.
1 John 2:2
"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." (NASB)
Did jesus die for the sins of everyone in the world or just believers? The bible says everyone.
What does the Bible say...
Hi tealblue.
I agree...Jesus did fulfill the passover sacrifice, which leads to the question...for what? What does the Bible say His goal was on the cross? No where do I see it speaking of Jesus' "intention" on the cross.
The Bible says..."...He became the Author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him...." (Heb. 5:9, NKJV). "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." (Mat.1:21)
So, the "it" referred to as the Bible states, is our salvation. This is the theme throughout the whole Word of God starting from Genesis, speaking of our Deliverer, our Messiah, of Jesus. His resurrection, showing the fulfillment of His sacrifice, came afer His "finished" work of salvation on the cross
*John 3:13-17*
Blessings...Dmarie
I agree with the same. Is there a reason why you think a Catholic belives any different?
We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried;
This is part of our creed which sums up what his crusifiction was for.
Wanting to understand.
[QUOTE=tealblue;116043] I don't think Jesus was intending when he said it is finished to imply that at all.
Hi tealblue.
Thanks again for your response. I'm still a little confused on part of your first statement. Do you believe Jesus completed the work of salvation for us on the cross, or as your statement seems to imply, is there still further work that Jesus is "intending" for us to do in order to accomplish this?
Blessings...Dmarie
[QUOTE=Dmarie;116159]First we need to define what you mean by the word "US" Do you mean US as in the elect or do you mean US to mean the entire world as in every single person that has ever lived or will live? If you mean US as in the entire world(not just the elect) then yes I believe Jesus completed his work of atonement. So if Jesus died for the entire world is the entire world saved? Obviously not so what else is there? Turn to 1 John 2Originally Posted by tealblue
1My children,* I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one.a 2He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world.b 3The way we may be sure* that we know him is to keep his commandments.c 4Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.d 5But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfected in him. This is the way we may know that we are in union with him:e 6whoever claims to abide in him ought to live [just] as he lived.
Pay close attention to verse 3. This is the way we KNOW. Is to KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.
So in a nutshell the Catholic position that Christ was a sacrafise for the entire worlds sins in that we might have an advocate with the father.
In this way, yes christ's atonement is suffecient.
Last edited by tealblue; 02-21-2012 at 09:37 PM. Reason: spelling
Hi, and thanks again for your response tealblue.
So, if Christ's atonement for the whole world is "sufficient" on the cross, (which I believe as well), then do catholics believe someone can have instant salvation at the moment they decide to put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ proclaiming Him to be their Lord and Savior? Would this person be considered "saved"?
I know Jesus, and I say this because I have believed and accepted what He has done for me, and I have proclaimed Him as my Lord and Savior; but I sin, and I often fail to keep His commandments, but I confess these things to Him, and I ask His forgiveness knowing that I have an immediate Advocate with the Father when I do this, but do catholics believe this, and is this sufficient? (Sorry, if this is redundant. I think this is the longest sentence I've ever written.)
Blessings...Dmarie
Catholics don't consider salvation as a moment in time. God sees us from birth to death in a single glance.
I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."
I don't believe in the idea of irrisistable grace but free will to accept or reject the gospal at any time.
Yes there is one thing to accept what he has done for us and accept his free grace but there is another thing to cooperate with Gods grace. Yes oviously we all sin but continued unrepented sin isn't compatable with the christian life. Jesus is clear on this.
Heb 10 26* s If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins 27but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.t 28Anyone who rejects the law of Moses* is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses.u 29Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace?v 30We know the one who said:
“Vengeance is mine; I will repay,”
You ask is christs sacrafise suffecient. Yes its suffecient for all mankind. It sounds like you are asking if simply making a one time profesion of faith suffecient for salvation. That I would say no.
Greetings tealblue.
I was a former catholic many years ago. I am now a christian.
I come from a family of 2 nuns, a franciscan brother, and several cathchism teachers. Almost half my family is now christian, the other half catholic, and a few have "left religion."
I know the salvation stance is still basically the same within the catholic church, however, I do know of some catholics, (some being family, and some friends), who do "profess" to be "born again" and who do believe in an immediate "one time profession of faith."
I was curious if there were any "professing" catholics on this site, and if the "profession" and acceptance of being "born again" was something that was beginning to be "understood" and "accepted" within the catholic church. Your statemnt of "no" is clear where you stand on this. It does seem though like it is trickling through... a little, being that at one time it was unheard of, at least to me, for any catholic to claim to be "born again."
I can remember my parish priest doing an actual service on the "mumbo-jumbo" of being "born again." This is what he called it. I was about 15yrs old at the time, but I never forgot it. Years later, I was being challenged at work by a "christian" about those 2 words. I immediately responded by telling him that they were "mumbo-jumbo." He in turn proceeded to tell me that Jesus was the one who actually said those words, and to look it up for myself. I stewed in this, along with everything else he had told me, for the next few weeks. I finally decided to take on the challenge and look it up for myself. It took me awhile, since I had no idea where the book of John was, (that's where he told me to look); but it caused me to scan through the book more closely, which I had never done before.
When I finally came to the verse where Jesus said "you must be born again", I was literally "mouth-dropped". After the intial shock of what I had just read, and a good while, I knew it had to be true. It was in the Bible, and Jesus did actually say it. I continued to read through the book of John, and I have to say, from that moment, I never thought the same about what I had been taught.
In those days, we were never encouraged to read our Bibles. We were always told that it was the priest who did the reading and interpreting. I know this has changed somewhat, that is, reading the Bible anyway. It seems to be encouraged more now. What I do find still "mouth-dropping" is that the John 3 "born again" chapter along with the Romans 10:9,10 verses are still not as it seems "accepted." To use your words..."....if simply making a one time profession of faith sufficient for salvation..."That I would say no."
It is my prayer that the catholic church changes its stance regarding this.
Blessings...Dmarie
Last edited by Dmarie; 02-22-2012 at 10:55 PM.
Ya I was an evangelical for many years my self and now iam christian(Catholic) lol. just kidding. Ya getting back to the term born again. Yes Catholics profess to be born again. And yes catholics to a point believe in a one time event but not to the extent that its a done deal. Historically the word born again means to be baptized. born of water and spirit. Not til about 150 years ago did it mean what an evangelical says it means. if you read writings from early christians it meant born in baptism. The reformers believed it was refering to baptism. Read the verse that talks about being born again. Its pretty vaugue. You have to have a pre notion to really come up with born again to mean a conversion experiance.
"Ya...",...Ya...,"
Hello, tealblue.
In regards to what seems to be your summed-up response of "Ya...",..."Ya...",
(and if I listen closely enough, I think I can hear a yawn, yawn also),
well, for the verse being "vague" as you referred to it, it certainly was a life changing, as well as an eternity changing experience for me, and not just for me only, but for countless others as well.
Helpful Hint: Read the chapter of John 3 in its entirety. It all ties in to the "verse."
"And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son." (1John 5:11) *it does not say "will give us"*
Blessings...Dmarie
So are you basing the verse about being born again on a personal feeling? Or are you basing it on the context. I did go back and read the entire chapter and it is in fact about baptism. After jesus's speech about being born again it immediately in verse 22 turns to the topic of water baptism. Lutherans, methodist, anglican, and some others also believe that born again means in baptism. I would like to hear why you feel being born again is directed as a conversion experiance biblically.
Yes 1John 5:11 does talk about salvation in the present. But as I pointed out the bible talks about salvation in the past, present and future terms.
10Indeed, if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, once reconciled, will we be saved by his life.
According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, 11for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. 12If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13the work of each will come to light, for the Day* will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work.f 14If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved,
I didn't mean to sound bored was trying to sound more formal. So far you have been really cordial and I hope I have been the same.
[/B]
Greetings tealblue.
I do appreciate your response.
No, being "born again" is not a "personal feeling", but it is a real, "spiritual" re-birth, and this is what Jesus was conveying to Nicodemus. Jesus is not speaking of water baptism as the saving ingredient, but that it is belief in Him. This is salvation.
In verse 16, Jesus says..."...whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."
In verse 18, Jesus again says..."He who believes in Him is not condemned...."
The "water" being spoken of in verse 5, is symbolically speaking of "spiritual" water which cleanses us and gives us life. Jesus said He is the "living water", and this is what He calls us all to drink. (John 4:1-14)
It is He who spiritually cleanses us and gives us life.
The ritual of water baptism is done after our re-birth and it is done in obedience to what Christ has commanded us to do. (Mat 28:19,20)
It is in this obedience, that a "proclamation" an "evidence" is made of that which has already occured within us, that is...Christ in us...our salvation!
Blessings tealblue...Dmarie
Last edited by Dmarie; 02-24-2012 at 02:32 PM. Reason: spelling
Can you show me where baptism comes before coming to christ always?
For in him dwells the whole fullness of the deity* bodily, 10and you share in this fullness in him, who is the head of every principality and power. 11h In him* you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ. 12You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.i 13j And even when you were dead [in] transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions; 14* obliterating the bond against us, with its legal claims, which was opposed to us, he also removed it from our midst, nailing it to the cross;k 15despoiling the principalities and the powers, he made a public spectacle of them,l leading them away in triumph by it.*
In the OT circumcission was done to infants. Paul is equating Baptism with the circumcission of the OT.
The water spoken to nicodemus as well as John ch 4 is also talking about water baptism. Using water as a metaphore for spiritul rebirth is subject to ones own interpetation. Some have said its a metaphore for ambionic fluid. Why does Jesus have to have a metaphore for spiritual rebirth then use the word spirit in the same sentance? You must be born again of water(spiritual rebirth) and spirit.
18For Christ also suffered* for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.g 19In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison,* 20who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.h 21This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God* for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,i 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.j
In this parable Peter is talking about in the days of noah where they were saved through water. Peter here is talking about water and is obviously refering to baptism.
I am not saying that just because you are baptized you are saved. But baptism is the initial grace. In the NT it mostly deals with adults since it was the intial conversion to christianity but many instances entire households were baptized. no infants or children are ever mentioned not included.
Greetings.
Tealblue says: [/I][/B]The water spoken to nicodemus as well as John ch 4 is also talking about water baptism. Using water as a metaphore for spiritul rebirth is subject to ones own interpetation.
*Jesus said it very plainly..."For John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit...." (Acts 1:5) No "metaphores" here.
Tealblue says: [/I][/B]In this parable Peter is talking about in the days of noah where they were saved through water. Peter here is talking about water and is obviously refering to baptism.
*Noah believed God, (Faith), and built the arc and did all that he was told; and it was through this belief, (Faith in God), that they were saved.
There is more to this verse..."There is also an an***ype which now saves us-baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ...." Here, "baptism" is being used metaphorically. "...the answer of a good conscience" (Faith), "...through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" the "Living Water".
As Peter began to sink after walking on the water, he cried out "Lord, save me!", And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him...", and saved him. (Faith, and Jesus)
There is no ordinance of baptism here or anywhere else where it is used as a means for salvation.
As Jesus said, we are "...baptized with the Holy Spirit...." (Acts 1:5) The "ordinance" of baptism comes after we are baptized with the Holy Spirit in obedience to what Christ has commanded us to do. It is a "proclamation", and "evidence" to what has already occured within us, that is...our salvation!
Blessings...Dmarie
Last edited by Dmarie; 02-26-2012 at 05:37 AM. Reason: still trying to get used to this system!
"initial grace"?
Tealblue, please explain to me what you mean by "baptism" being "the initial grace"? What is "initial grace"?
Blessings...Dmarie
Matt 3
. 11g I am baptizing you with water, for repentance, but the one who is coming after me is mightier than I.
I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire.* 12* h His winnowing fan is in his hand. He will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”
Baptism of the holy spirit is refering to the spirit accompanying water baptism described here in acts 2
38Peter [said] to them, “Repent and be baptized,* every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit
Here peter is talking about being baptized and recieving the holy spirit. The word baptism come form the word baptizmo which means to wash with water.
I am not sure where you are getting baptism as being an ordinance from acts 1. yes its true the baptism John was adminstering was just water. But I don't see the baptism that Jesus was preaching as an ordinance. Jesus commands us to be baptized in the name of the Father, son and holy spirit. He also promises us that the holy spirit will decend upon us because of it.
38Peter [said] to them, “Repent and be baptized,* every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit
As far as What I mean by Baptism being the initial grace. It means that its the first grace we recieve upon being baptized.
16Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.’
3Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?c 4We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.d
11That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.d
I don't think Jesus or the apostles would use the words wash or anything related as a metaphore for something else when in baptism that is actually what they are phsically doing.
Last edited by tealblue; 02-27-2012 at 07:32 PM.
So, water baptism saves?
Hi tealblue.
I really do appreciate your time, and your responses to me.
So, summed up, am I correct in saying that you believe salvation comes through the "initial grace" which comes through the physical act of water baptism, in conjunction with the Holy Spirit?
What if I were to simply believe and accept all that Jesus has done for me, and call out to Him to save me.... is this sufficient enough for my salvation?
Also, can there ever be a given time or situation, when the rite of water baptism alone can save?
Blessings...Dmarie
I suppose if you drowned during baptism. You have to remember when you talk about grace and a catholic talks about grace we mean two differnt ideas
But, what does the Bible teach?
Greetings tealblue.
I understand what the catholic church teaches, and I also know now, what the Bible clearly and plainly teaches about salvation and baptism, which is why I left catholicism.
It's not about what you catholics think or what you evangelicals think, or what anybody else thinks for that matter, but what does the Bible teach.
I also know very well that catholicism does wind in teachings, and meanings, and practices that truly are not biblical, but they support these with their own teachings which are found outside of the Bible and only in their other catholic writings (i.e.,CCC) which they claim to expound on.
I know there are many catholics who love the Lord, and incessently strive for Him, but I also know that this striving comes with an ever present yoke of uncertainty.
As a "born again" christian, there is a difinitive peace in knowing that I have a very present salvation. This, coming by simple "belief" in Him and what He has done for me, because the Bible tells me so; and because of this, the Bible also clearly tells me that I am then baptized with His Holy Spirit of promise who seals me, and adopts me into His Kingdom. As a christian, I don't have to think of my salvation in a term of being in the future. God tells us very clearly, and plainly, "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." (2Cor.6:2)
Your right, God is the only One who does know the heart, but He has also told us that we can know about our salvation, and that we can know that we have it.
Baptizing with water is not a prerequisite as a saving element, but again, the Bible says that it is by faith in Jesus Christ who then, in union with this belief, baptizes us with His Holy Spirit. When we are baptized with water, it is an evidence that we are proclaiming and showing that we were buried with Christ, (our "old self"), and raised new with Him. (2Cor 5:17)
Blessings...Dmarie
No offence but I meet evagelcials all the time who say that they follow the bible and what it says. If every one of them believed somewhat the same I might take notice but everyone of them has different belief systems. Some believe that baptism is req for salvation, some believe that your salvation is not secure, some believe that tongues are the evidence of the holy spirit. Really the only thing that is agreed upon is that Catholics are wrong and not following the bible. Obviously someone is not reading the bible correctly. You are telling me that you are reading it correctly. I have heard others tell me the same. I have heard numerous tell me that they are spirit filled and are guided in the correct meaning. Either the spirit is lying to some or people are just reading the bible for themselves and going about there own way. The born again movement is only 100 years old at best and is based on spurious reading. The word born again has never meant anything but baptism.
Take off the glasses.
Hi Tb. No offence taken.
So, to what "branch" of Catholicism do you belong?
-Traditional/Orthodox (which seems to be yours, based on your responses)
-Moderate
-Charasmatic
-Evangelical
-Modernist, Liberal
-Nominal or Social
-Syncretistic/Eclectic
Lapsed or Apostate
I wasn't quite sure where you sood on the salvation/baptism doctrines, but again, based on your responses I have a pretty good idea. They reflect the "sacramental" position.
We both know that from a young age, we are taught to not doubt the CC (magisterium and traditions) in regards to catholic dogma.
*Catholic Dogma+Catholic Traditions+Bible=Catholicism*
We are taught to trust the CC in its "inerrant authority."
Think about it Tb, the CC is interpreting God's Word (Sole Scripture/Bible) through its infusion of additional dogma+its traditions, (as if God needed any help interpreting His Word). Is God not capable of explaining Himself? Scripture interprets Scripture.
As you already know, the Catholic position on salvation teaches that it is an "ongoing process of justification", and that forgiveness and absolution of sin not only comes through faith in Jesus Christ, but it must come through the sacraments, namely, Baptism, Penance, Holy Orders, Confirmation. Salvation also comes through the added participation of the Mass, and through the additional help of Mary, the mother of God.
The CC terms all this as "sacredotal salvation".
So, what it comes down to is that, whatever terms I use, "Salvation", "Justification", "Grace", "Baptism", "Regeneration", "Reconciliation", ...it's all through the interpretation of the CC's dogma colored glasses. All one has to do is compare what the Bible simply, and plainly, says about these doctrines, with the CC's interpretations,...you'll difinitely see the differences.
The Council of Trent (1543-63), decrees (and still maintains):
"If anyone says that the sacraments...were not all ins***uted by our Lord Jesus Christ, or that there are more or less than seven...or that any one of these seven is not truly and intrinsically a sacrament, let him be anathama. (Decrees 7th Session, Canon 1,51)
"If anyone says that the sacraments...are not necessary for salvation...and without them...men obtain from God through faith alone the justification...let him be anathama." (7th Session Canon 4,52)
"If anyone says that baptism is optional, that it is not necessary for salvation, let him be anathama." (5th Canon, 53)
The CC ties this in with the sacrament of penance which states that Jesus Himself ins***uted this sacrament for "the pardon of sins comitted after baptism". Now, why would this be? Because, the CC teaches that without this sacrament, our "justification" can be lost entirely through the comission of "mortal" sin. Thus, making necessary a "new"sacrament of penance to be re-applied to re-instate and restore our justification and its process.
And this is only the tip of the Catholic ice-berg.
This is all works Tb.
This is where the Catholic Church places itself..."Over the Book [Bible] stands the Church...." (Canons & Decrees, 42)
So, the question is, are you willing to base your salvation on the Catholic magistrium and its Traditions or simply, on the Bible?
Take off the glasses.
Blessings...Dmarie
Last edited by Dmarie; 03-02-2012 at 05:22 PM. Reason: spelling
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