Voting in the Deep South

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Radix

Gee Masta Marvin. Just then why were people of color prevented from going to the White and glorious temple before 1978? Was it doctrine or just plain bigotry?

I know for a fact that blacks did go to the temple to perform baptisms for the dead. And another prejudicial bias bites the dust.

Tell me, why were the Levites the only ones who could hold the priesthood and perform the rites in the temple? One out of twelve!!! Was that doctrine or bigotry or both? And don't cite any scripture unless it says why. Most of the scriptures people toss at me in reply to this question do not say why.

If God did it before, why are you so surprised when he does it again?

Marvin

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Radix

Here is some research for you. The actions of banning blacks from the temples before 1978 speaks volumes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJwln...eature=related

It is a brief video, but could easily be much longer.

How is banning blacks from the temples any worse than banning blacks from white churches? And you still have to explain why blacks joined the church before 1978. And why there were so many blacks in Africa that wanted desperately to join and even incorporated the church before the church even sent missionaries. LDS Church in Black Africa is the video that you should watch. It didn't bother them, so why should it bother a white guy like you? Nobody was forcing them join the church. Before my mission in 1973, I met and purchased a book by a black man named Alan Cherry. It told the story of his conversion. Maybe you need to go to that very informative website Black LDS Mormon

LDS churches have never been segregated and blacks held positions in the church, such as Sunday school president and others.

Marvin

[Radix]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

How is banning blacks from the temples any worse than banning blacks from white churches? And you still have to explain why blacks joined the church before 1978. And why there were so many blacks in Africa that wanted desperately to join and even incorporated the church before the church even sent missionaries. LDS Church in Black Africa is the video that you should watch. It didn't bother them, so why should it bother a white guy like you? Nobody was forcing them join the church. Before my mission in 1973, I met and purchased a book by a black man named Alan Cherry. It told the story of his conversion. Maybe you need to go to that very informative website Black LDS Mormon

LDS churches have never been segregated and blacks held positions in the church, such as Sunday school president and others.

Marvin

Welcome Mister Cherry, (in 1973), just don't expect to come to the big house. It is not meant for you dark skin folks.

Any church that banned blacks, anywhere in the USA, was WRONG.

How about you guys Marvin, where your leaders wrong to ban black members of your church from the temple? For some reason, you guys never seem to want to answer that question.

[Radix]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

I know for a fact that blacks did go to the temple to perform baptisms for the dead. And another prejudicial bias bites the dust.

Tell me, why were the Levites the only ones who could hold the priesthood and perform the rites in the temple? One out of twelve!!! Was that doctrine or bigotry or both? And don't cite any scripture unless it says why. Most of the scriptures people toss at me in reply to this question do not say why.

If God did it before, why are you so surprised when he does it again?

Marvin

That is a new one to me (about blacks being allowed to baptize for the dead before 1978.) How about holding the priesthood Marvin, what prevented that?

When it comes to the Levites, that was their duty. It did not make them any more godly than anyone in the other tribes. The Old Testament priesthood has nothing to do with the current day Mormon concept.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Radix

Here is some research for you. The actions of banning blacks from the temples before 1978 speaks volumes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJwln...eature=related

It is a brief video, but could easily be much longer.

Okay Mister Graduate---you do your research on youtube? Wow, I am sure this is a reliable source. NOT!

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Radix

Welcome Mister Cherry, (in 1973), just don't expect to come to the big house. It is not meant for you dark skin folks.

Any church that banned blacks, anywhere in the USA, was WRONG.

How about you guys Marvin, where your leaders wrong to ban black members of your church from the temple? For some reason, you guys never seem to want to answer that question.

Do your research Radix--it is apparent that you do not know what church leaders have said about this subject, publically even. You say you have a graduate degree---let's see if you can find anything that is actually worthy of some real research.

[BigJulie]

Does anyone here know who Elijah Abel was?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Do your research Radix--it is apparent that you do not know what church leaders have said about this subject, publically even.

Brigham Young
"You see some cl***es of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race -- that they should be the "servants of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 290, 1859)

http://brighamyoungquotes.com/?s=blacks

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Does anyone here know who Elijah Abel was?

Yep sure do.

[jdjhere]

Was gone all weekend, So, sorry Libby, you are correct. I was getting off subject and I apologize. I guess I was just trying to make the point that NO ONE knows who someone is actually going to vote for until they are in the booth, thats all. Even then you still don't know. I guess I just think that "like" belief systems will vote for "like" belief systems, but I guess that is not always true. Thanks for the input, BigJulie. Dont want any actual arguements here, just discussions.

[jdjhere]

BigJulie- I just read about Elijah Abel in Wikipedia because I did not know who he was. Is that a fairly accurate betrayal of him and his life? Its pretty short.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

BigJulie- I just read about Elijah Abel in Wikipedia because I did not know who he was. Is that a fairly accurate betrayal of him and his life? Its pretty short.

jdhere--the point of giving you Elijah Abel's name is to show that most people are completely unaware of the total history of blacks in the LDS church or what has been said by various leaders. What I tend to see instead are comments by critics that show that the research done is often the Walter Martin type--short, inaccurate, slanted, and biased to sensationalize The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) rather than complete and truthful.

[alanmolstad]

ummm...I dont really like the tone of this conversation.....nor where it seems to be headed....

We are at a site dedicated and named after Walter Martin....we are guests at this table....

[jdjhere]

OK BigJulie. I see what you are saying but I really dont see how many of the things said by LDS leadership in the past can be reconciled to anything of good tidings towards the black race of people in the early LDS church. I have to honestly say that I have seen LDS in these chat rooms TRY but its actually very embar***ing the things they say and the way they try to change what their leaders and prophets have said in the past. I would absolutely love to see an LDS start a thread about this (there probably already IS one) and let Evangelicals post ALL the BOM things said about the curse of cain and the like. I really do not see any way around some type of racism from looking at all these verses, even if they are not "official" church doctrine. When someone is a prophet of God (or a very influential leader for that matter) and they SAY something, then while they are speaking I would NOT think God was lying through them, or confused. What they say should ALWAYS be the Truth, or it is NOT God speaking THROUGH them but just another opinion. And if it is just OPINION, how do we know everything else they said is not just opinion as well and could be wrong? I have big issues and troubles with "cover ups" or trying to say the clear meanings of something someone said is misundertood, not the teachings of the church "today", or just that persons opinion. This leaves nothing but a foundation of sand for these prophets or leaders, constantly washing away and being repiled up with something else, only to be washed away again. Does that make sense?

And I agree with AlanMolstad's comment to you after you said: "What I tend to see instead are comments by critics that show that the research done is often the Walter Martin type--short, inaccurate, slanted, and biased to sensationalize The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) rather than complete and truthful."

I disagree BigJulie, but you are en***led to your opinion. My first felt reaction would also be to say bad things about him if he exposed things about my belief system that he strongly believed were in error. Remember too that LDS teachers and prophets of the past have "invited" people to do so. So, why is this wrong? And tell me, why are you here in this room? To do.. what?

[Radix]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Does anyone here know who Elijah Abel was?

Elijah Abel and Walker Lewis got in before Brigham closed the door. Abel got in by way of Joseph Smith, Lewis got in by way of William Smith. A few of Elijah's descendants were allowed as well.

But this brings up a big point here, were there no blacks considered worthy on their own btwn these two and 1978? Can you tell us exactly what changed in 1978 BigJulie? Your acting as if black skin was never considered a problem in the Mormon church.

[Radix]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Okay Mister Graduate---you do your research on youtube? Wow, I am sure this is a reliable source. NOT!

Your inability to deal with the references is noted BigJulie. One day, maybe you will be Big enough to deal with it.

[Radix]

It seems that Novato likes to come in, call people who do not vote like him/her self "uneducated" and then run and hide.

[jdjhere]

BigJulie stated: "What do you think about a bunch of pastors getting together to pray over Santorum. That was strange to me too. I wonder if they think he is a "christ" to them?"

I seriously don't understand why you think this is strange, BigJulie? Praying for somebody? And why would you wonder if they think he is a "Christ" to them? Evangelicals know that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ and Messiah and that there is only one. I find THAT kind of a strange statement! Could you explain what you meant by them thinking Santorum was a "Christ??" Thanks.

[jdjhere]

Following is the text of Elijah Abel’s Patriarchal Blessing, pronounced by Joseph Smith, Sr., circa 1836:
[Patriarchal] Blessing of Elijah Able who was born in Frederick County, Maryland, July 25th 1808.

"Brother Able, in the name of Jesus Christ I lay my hands upon thy head to bless thee and thou shalt be blessed even forever. I seal upon thee a father’s blessing, because thou art an orphan, for thy father, hath never done his duty toward thee, but the Lord hast had his eye upon thee, and brought thee through straits and thou hast come to be rec[k]oned with the saints of the most High. Thou hast been ordained an Elder and anointed to secure thee against the power of the destroyer. Thou shalt see his power in laying waste the nations, & the wicked slaying the wicked, while blood shall run down the streets like water, and thy heart shall weep over their calamities. Angels shall visit thee and thou shalt receive comfort. They shall call thee blessed and deliver thee from thine enemies. They shall break thy bands and keep thee from afflictions. Thy name is written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Thou shalt travel in the East and visit foreign countries, speak in all various tongues, and thou shalt be able to teach different languages. Thou shall see visions of this world and other worlds and comprehend the laws of all kingdoms, and confound the wisdom of this generation. Thy life shall be preserved to a good old age. Thou must seek first the kingdom of heaven and all blessings shall be added thereunto. Thou shalt be made equal to thy brethren and thy soul be white in eternity and thy robes glittering: thou shalt receive these blessings because of the covenants of thy fathers. Thou shalt save thousands, do much good, and receive all the power that thou needest to accomplish thy mission. These and all the blessings which thou canst desire in righteousness, I seal upon thee, in the name of Jesus, Amen."
W.A. Cowdery ***ist. Recorder

Though Elijah spent his life serving in the LDS Church, he had one desire which was denied him in this life. According to A Book of Mormons,

“Abel had received washings and anoitings in the Kirtland Temple in 1836, before the complete endowment ceremonies had been established. Though he acted as proxy in baptisms for the dead in Nauvoo and Salt Lake City, Brigham Young denied his request to be sealed to his wife and family [8 children]: that was a ‘privilege’ he ‘could not grant,’ a decision later reaffirmed by President John Taylor.” (Richard S. Van Wagoner and Stephen C. Walker, 4)

As race relations in the Church continued to deteriorate over time, LDS Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith even attempted to deny that Elijah Abel had ever been a priesthood holder. Responding to a private inquiry, Mr. Smith claimed Church historian Andrew Jensen had gotten it wrong when he put Elijah’s ordination to the priesthood in the Latter-day Saint Biographical Encyclopedia. Mr. Smith suggested that there were two men named Elijah Abel; the historian had confused the “names and the work done by one man named Abel … with the name of the Negro who joined the Church in an early day.” (Joseph Fielding Smith to Mrs. Floren S. Preece, 18 Jan. 1955, S. George Ellsworth Papers, Utah State University, Logan)

A few years later Joseph Fielding Smith changed his position, writing in another private letter,
“According to the doctrine of the church, the Negro, because of some condition of unfaithfulness in the spirit—or pre-existence, was not valiant and hence was not denied the mortal probation, but was denied the blessing of the Priesthood. In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints he has the privilege of baptism, confirmation and membership along with everyone else, as far as this life is concerned.
“…It is true that elders of the church laid hands on a Negro and blessed him ‘apparently’ with the Priesthood, but they could not give that which the Lord had denied. It is true that Elijah Abel was so ‘ordained.’ This was however before the matter had been submitted to the Prophet Joseph Smith. …It was afterwards that the Prophet Joseph Smith declared that the Negro was not to be ordained.” (Letter from Joseph Fielding Smith to Joseph H. Henderson, April 10, 1963)

I don't understand this. I was reading about Elijah Abel to learn more about him but I don't understand something- Joseph Smith Sr (Joseph's Father) pronounced that Elijah Abel DID receive the priesthood here or not? Maybe I am reading it incorrectly? Then Joseph Smith Jr said No, after it had already been confirmed on him? Could an LDS explain this to me? Thanks.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

BigJulie stated: "What do you think about a bunch of pastors getting together to pray over Santorum. That was strange to me too. I wonder if they think he is a "christ" to them?"

I seriously don't understand why you think this is strange, BigJulie? Praying for somebody? And why would you wonder if they think he is a "Christ" to them? Evangelicals know that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ and Messiah and that there is only one. I find THAT kind of a strange statement! Could you explain what you meant by them thinking Santorum was a "Christ??" Thanks.

I only made my comment to compare the comments before regarding others who the poster deemed "a christ."

I do not think it is strange at all to pray over someone. I do think it is strange for a group of pastors to do this for a political candidate though. I don't remember Christ endorsing anyone politically while on earth.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

I don't understand this. I was reading about Elijah Abel to learn more about him but I don't understand something- Joseph Smith Sr (Joseph's Father) pronounced that Elijah Abel DID receive the priesthood here or not? Maybe I am reading it incorrectly? Then Joseph Smith Jr said No, after it had already been confirmed on him? Could an LDS explain this to me? Thanks.

As far as we can see, he was ordained and held the priesthood. It was Joseph F. Smith who ***erted this was not the case, but I believe that further research into this showed that he was ordained an Elder. Brigham Young is the one who set the policy toward blacks and the priesthood and the reasons for this are unknown. But the church leaders decided not to undo the policy until the church leaders had revelation from the Lord regarding it.

What I can tell you though, is that the priesthood is not the same as in EV religions or the catholic religion. There is no salary and the power that is gained is only the power to serve others in capacity for the Lord.

By the way, this is a very long history and in order to fully understand it, you will really need to read up on many articles. It also, to really be understood, needs to be understood from within the paradigm of the church and of believers. (Just as the reading of the Bible must be done.) What you can know is that there are and were many black members who were and continued to be very faithful even when denied the priesthood. I am sure at this point, Elijah Abel has been sealed to his family as per the mercies of God who provides his blessings for all who faithfully desire them.

[jdjhere]

BigJulie stated: "I am sure at this point, Elijah Abel has been sealed to his family as per the mercies of God who provides his blessings for all who faithfully desire them."

As a Christian I believe our God, who is full of mercy, will make every decision of salvation based on whether or not we accepted the free gift from God in His Son, Jesus Christ, dying on the cross for us. The JUST for the UNJUST. His blood ALONE washed away our sins, and it was enough for the sins of the WHOLE world. If Elijah Abel ever accepted this and his family as well, whatever Joseph Smith Jr taught or said about black people OR salvation, as well as Brigham Young or ANY of the LDS church leaders, would crumble to nothing, and sealing would mean nothing to the Lord. As a family, they would be together anyway as long as they were all in Christ. This is MY Lord and my God and the only God I will have anything to do with.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

BigJulie stated: "I am sure at this point, Elijah Abel has been sealed to his family as per the mercies of God who provides his blessings for all who faithfully desire them."

As a Christian I believe our God, who is full of mercy, will make every decision of salvation based on whether or not we accepted the free gift from God in His Son, Jesus Christ, dying on the cross for us. The JUST for the UNJUST. His blood ALONE washed away our sins, and it was enough for the sins of the WHOLE world. If Elijah Abel ever accepted this and his family as well, whatever Joseph Smith Jr taught or said about black people OR salvation, as well as Brigham Young or ANY of the LDS church leaders, would crumble to nothing, and sealing would mean nothing to the Lord. As a family, they would be together anyway as long as they were all in Christ. This is MY Lord and my God and the only God I will have anything to do with.

So, do you believe, as does my evangelical friend, that marriage ends at death?

[Radix]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I only made my comment to compare the comments before regarding others who the poster deemed "a christ."

I do not think it is strange at all to pray over someone. I do think it is strange for a group of pastors to do this for a political candidate though. I don't remember Christ endorsing anyone politically while on earth.

Since Christ did not endorse anyone, then I guess no Mormons should be endorsing Romney, at least according you what you are saying.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Radix

Since Christ did not endorse anyone, then I guess no Mormons should be endorsing Romney, at least according you what you are saying.

From a religious point of view, you will never see a group of Mormons getting together to pray over Mitt Romney. Mormons vary in whom they support, but I think a lot of them support Romney because they see him as the best contender to fix this economy. You will never see the Mormon church endorse anyone who is running for office. You will see Mormon's get together to pray over those who are suffering from health or to bless our leaders in general, but never someone specific TO become a political leader.

P.S. And even though I don't support many of Obama's policies, I still pray for him and his well-being and those he works with.