Does your faith depend on physical evidences?

[Libby]

Was looking through articles on "evidence for Jesus" and came across a statement from a couple of Christians, stating there faith did not rest upon physical evidence. I was happy to see a Christian admit that, because I know, deep down that most EV Christians really do feel that way, but, for some reason, on these boards, they do not allow that for other faiths, like Mormonism. There is all of this talk about physical evidence, as though that is going to prove anything, in regards to faith and the spiritual realm...speaking of it, as though it were THE most important thing.

So, it's nice to know that there are some who don't need physical evidence or will even keep their faith, despite lack of physical evidence. If your knowledge is from God (the Spirit), that's as it should be.

Archeological evidence of Jesus doesn't quell faith for believers

[Libby]

Excerpts from the above link:

Pat Kraff and Nancy Mebed came to the lecture because of an interest in the relationship between science and religion. They said their faith was not in question, regardless of what the archaeology revealed.

"I don't depend on historical evidence for my belief," Kraff said.

Galor said the accuracy of Helena's site cannot be archaeologically or historically verified.

"We haven't uncovered any archaeological evidence for Jesus individually, and there is not much hope that we ever will," she said.

Christina Cunningham, who attended the lecture, rephrased Galor's summary. When asked about the lecture's relationship to her religion, she quoted the well-known saying of faith, which must, it appears, satisfy the scientific quest for physical evidence of Jesus' existence: "If you have faith, no evidence is necessary. If you lack faith, no evidence is sufficient."

That last statement says it all.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Does your faith depend on physical evidences?

Faith in Christ is based on the fact that Christ really did exist on the earth and did the things that he said he did. Do we have physical evidence thar Christ really existed? Absolutely. We have independent eye witness testimonies of this fact.

This type of evidence is completely lacking for the book of mormon which tells me that this book is made up by Joseph and can't be trusted.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Faith in Christ is based on the fact that Christ really did exist on the earth and did the things that he said he did. Do we have physical evidence thar Christ really existed? Absolutely. We have independent eye witness testimonies of this fact.

This type of evidence is completely lacking for the book of mormon which tells me that this book is made up by Joseph and can't be trusted.

Well, that's not true. There were 11 witnesses that claim the Book of Mormon came from a Divine source, just as Joseph claimed. They held the plates, felt them with their hands, saw them and examined them, along with artifacts from the book.

If eyewitness accounts are going to come into play, then they have to be accepted for both Jesus and the Book of Mormon....or neither.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

If eyewitness accounts are going to come into play, then they have to be accepted for both Jesus and the Book of Mormon....or neither.

There is no evidence that predates Joseph. Show me any ancient writing that verifies the Nephites ever exited in the Americas.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

There is no evidence that predates Joseph. Show me any ancient writing that verifies the Nephites ever exited in the Americas.

Show me solid, irrefutable physical evidence, from non-Christian sources, that Jesus ever existed, and then we'll talk about Nephite evidence, from non-Mormon sources.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

Show me solid, irrefutable physical evidence, from non-Christian sources, that Jesus ever existed, and then we'll talk about Nephite evidence, from non-Mormon sources.

Okay, so you doubt the existence of Christ? Even solid atheists don't doubt that Christ existed. You really don't know what you're talking about Libby. The fact of Christ's existence was established long ago. I mean, Libby, common sense should tell you that Paul, writing perhaps 30 years or less after the Ascension, is proof positive that Christ existed. He wrote to people who would have known if Christ was an actual person or a myth. The Jews weren't fools you know. Paul established the authenticity of his account when he appealed to the fact that many who were still living were witnesses of Christ's resurrection! Do you think Paul didn't exist?

Paul wrote: "He(Jesus) was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep." 1 Cor 15.4-6

Don't you think the persons living at that time would have booed Paul out of town if he was lying? No, he was a great Apostle, and nobody (not even the Jews) accused him of lying about the existence of Jesus. They simply attacked him for believing that Christ was Who he said He was, the Son of God.

I suggest you read Strobel's book or at least watch the DVD:

http://www.christianbook.com/Christi...FQaFhwodCxeviQ

This deals with the evidence of Christ's existence. I doubt you'd deny the existence of Ceasar Augustus or Nero, right? Why do you deny, or even question, Christ's existence? There are four eyewitness Gospels written about his life. Luke says he carefully researched everything. He lived while Mary was still alive.

Don't close your heart to Christ - He did exist, and if what He said is true, then you need to decide what you, Libby, believe about Him.

[jdjhere]

Libby- do you or don't you agree that it is MUCH more difficult to find archeological physical proof of the existence of ONE man than it is to find archeological physical proof for the existence of an entire race or group of people that made things and were in a great war? Even with THAT being said, we still have a few-Jesus Christ is at least MENTIONED in other books other than the Bible, whether they are subject to question or not, which is at least SOME evidence that He existed. Can you give us ANY other evidences for the existence of Nephites other than the BOM or other LDS literature? I understand what you are saying about Spiritual evidences, but we as Evangelicals have Spiritual experiences as well and can say the same thing, so we negate each other on that point. That would leave us with OTHER evidences for proof. Are there any for Nephites? Thanks.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

Libby- do you or don't you agree that it is MUCH more difficult to find archeological physical proof of the existence of ONE man than it is to find archeological physical proof for the existence of an entire race or group of people that made things and were in a great war? Even with THAT being said, we still have a few-Jesus Christ is at least MENTIONED in other books other than the Bible, whether they are subject to question or not, which is at least SOME evidence that He existed. Can you give us ANY other evidences for the existence of Nephites other than the BOM or other LDS literature? I understand what you are saying about Spiritual evidences, but we as Evangelicals have Spiritual experiences as well and can say the same thing, so we negate each other on that point. That would leave us with OTHER evidences for proof. Are there any for Nephites? Thanks.

Even the Jews mention Jesus as the illegitimate spawn of Mary, the hairdresser, in the Babylonian Talmud.

[jdjhere]

Libby is defending something she does not believe herself (I think?? Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, Libby) but she is just trying to make a point. From the way she vigorously defends the LDS beliefs, I believe she still has one foot in the door of the LDS church, I think, but if you take away ANY historically verifiable REAL PERSON Jesus then the LDS faith falls apart as well. That would mean He NEVER came here to preach to the Native American Indians and therefore, LDS theology is moot.

The problem I am having is that, in my opinion, she is comparing the Needle TO the Haystack, the Needle being Jesus Christ and the Haystack being the Nephite People, Civilization and their great war where close to a million of them were killed.

Let's look at Jesus- It is a KNOWN absolute FACT that Jews exist, and Jesus was said to be a Jew. There ARE books OUTSIDE Christianity that MENTION Him, THUS evidence that He existed. Archeologically the Bible is a very good tool, with all cities accounted for and coins, tools, etc, found for emperors of the time, etc. There are multiple-millions of believers in Christ, thus also Spiritual Evidence that He existed.

Now, let's look at Nephi- no other historical writings OUTSIDE the LDS BOM and other literature mentions Nephi of the Nephites, nothing found physically or archeologically to confirm the existence of an ancient people called Nephites, Nephi or any OTHER main characters in the BOM are mentioned nowhere BUT LDS literature, but millions believe in Christ, thus Spiritual Evidence that He existed.

That is the evidence to date Libby. If you would like to add the best physical or archeological finds to strengthen your case, be my guest.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

Libby is defending something she does not believe herself (I think?? Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, Libby) but she is just trying to make a point. From the way she vigorously defends the LDS beliefs, I believe she still has one foot in the door of the LDS church, I think, but if you take away ANY historically verifiable REAL PERSON Jesus then the LDS faith falls apart as well. That would mean He NEVER came here to preach to the Native American Indians and therefore, LDS theology is moot.

The problem I am having is that, in my opinion, she is comparing the Needle TO the Haystack, the Needle being Jesus Christ and the Haystack being the Nephite People, Civilization and their great war where clode to a million of them were killed.

Let's look at Jesus- It is a KNOWN absolute FACT that Jews exist, and Jesus was said to be a Jew. There ARE books OUTSIDE Christianity that MENTION Him, THUS evidence that He existed. Archeologically the Bible is a very good tool, with all cities accounted for and coins, tools, etc, found for emperors of the time, etc. There are multiple-millions of believers in Christ, thus also Spiritual Evidence that He existed.

Now, let's look at Nephi- no other historical writings OUTSIDE the LDS BOM and other literature mentions Nephi of the Nephites, nothing found physically or archeologically to confirm the existence of an ancient people called Nephites, Nephi or any OTHER main characters in the BOM are mentioned nowhere BUT LDS literature, but millions believe in Christ, thus Spiritual Evidence that He existed.

That is the evidence to date Libby. If you would like to add the best physical or archeological finds to strengthen your case, be my guest.

You have it right, Jd. I don't think most religious people base their faith on physical evidence. If they did, they wouldn't have it very long, after reading a lot of non-religious/non-biased biblical scholars, many of whom take the same stance against the Bible/Jesus, etc, as some "Christians" do against LDS. Some people actually do lose their Christian faith, after studying the facts.

There is not much in the way of "physical" evidence, for Book of Mormon peoples, Jd, but there is "some". You will find it in Jeff Lindsay (and other's) writings that I have linked, a couple of times.

(I am not LDS, nor do I plan on returning - I am a Hindu-Christian, but I do think the LDS have "some" things right)

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Libby

You have it right, Jd. I don't think most religious people base their faith on physical evidence. If they did, they wouldn't have it very long, after reading a lot of non-religious/non-biased biblical scholars, many of whom take the same stance against the Bible/Jesus, etc, as some "Christians" do against LDS. Some people actually do lose their Christian faith, after studying the facts.

There is not much in the way of "physical" evidence, for Book of Mormon peoples, Jd, but there is "some". You will find it in Jeff Lindsay (and other's) writings that I have linked, a couple of times.

There is none, nope not even a little, little bit.
I like Jeff Lindsay's determnation in failer, he works so hard at it.
I can't blame you or Jeff for wanting to believe in something, anything that might validate the novel Book of Mormon.
It's kinda like Harry Potter, wouldn't be nice it Hogwarts was a real place, oh but wait, it is, somewhere in the middle of Florida!

[Libby]

Well, you are simply wrong. No surprise there.

I don't need physical evidence to tell me what is true. Neither do I need for Mormonism to be true (some of it is, some, not so much). I am not a practicing Mormon.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Libby

Well, you are simply wrong. No surprise there.

I don't need physical evidence to tell me what is true. Neither do I need for Mormonism to be true (some of it is, some, not so much). I am not a practicing Mormon.

It's okay I am simple, but never wrong. I was born that way, but I do keep trying to be wrong, but it goes against my nature.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

It's okay I am simple, but never wrong. I was born that way, but I do keep trying to be wrong, but it goes against my nature.

lol...you make me smile. Not a bad thing.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

Well, you are simply wrong. No surprise there.

I don't need physical evidence to tell me what is true. Neither do I need for Mormonism to be true (some of it is, some, not so much). I am not a practicing Mormon.

You might not practice it, but do you believe it?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Apologette

You might not practice it, but do you believe it?

As I said above, some of it is true, some of it, I do not believe...which is why I am no longer a practicing Mormon. A lot of what I don't believe has more to do with my rejection of conservative/fundamentalist Christianity, than with Mormonism, per se. I see more truth in Mormonism than in Calvinism (for example), but I think both of these Christian views have a fairly distorted view of Christ and who he really was.

[jdjhere]

Libby stated: "I am not LDS, nor do I plan on returning - I am a Hindu-Christian, but I do think the LDS have "some" things right>"

I actually AGREE with that Libby, the LDS DO INDEED have "some" things right-trying to live a good clean life, trying their best to love people, very friend and family oriented, very moral... these are ALL the right things to do and I am FOR them in that area. Here are my issues with their beliefs from their theology: they have "a form of godliness, but DENY the power thereof"... (2 Tim 3:5) they DENY who the REAL HISTORICAL Jesus of Nazareth was and IS. He is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, God the Son. To them He is one of many gods who died for them but could not COMPLETELY forgive ALL their sins. They believe in a different Jesus than Evangelicals do because of their "restored" gospel.

2 Cor. 11:3-4 "But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted-- you may well put up with it."

Because this is what happened to Joseph Smith when he prayed:

Gal 1:6-9: "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, (Moroni) preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

Now I have ZERO problems with the modern day LDS moral code (though I know a few and BELIEVE ME, they DO have SECRET sins!) but I DO have BIG issues with their polytheistic theology.

The prince of darkness is a LIAR, and father of lies, he was a murderer from the beginning, and he said something to Adam and Eve before they sinned-

Genesis 2:16-17 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
Genesis 3:5 "You will NOT surely die," the serpent said to the woman," For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God , knowing good and evil."
Again, satan is a LIAR, and father of lies. Why would LDS try to do what he is trying to do?

Satan always has a "crafty" explanation for his lies and deceptions. he is STILL trying to be "like God" (Isaiah 14:14) "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."
and LDS missionaries are trying to become a god as well.

Isaiah 43:10 "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

You REALLY need to believe this LDS.

Those are the issues I have.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

As I said above, some of it is true, some of it, I do not believe...which is why I am no longer a practicing Mormon. A lot of what I don't believe has more to do with my rejection of conservative/fundamentalist Christianity, than with Mormonism, per se. I see more truth in Mormonism than in Calvinism (for example), but I think both of these Christian views have a fairly distorted view of Christ and who he really was.

So, you do not believe in the Bible when it says that you are born dead to God and need to be born-again? That God calls those, whom He wills?

I don't think you reject Chrisitianity because of Calvinism, since you could very well go to an arminian Church where that isn't taught. No, I think you actually don't believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Second Person of the Godhead, Who shed His blood for sinful man. Am I right? In fact, you've even (here) questioned whether Jesus existed or not. When you stand in judgment, you won't be able to blame your rejection of the Gospel on Calvin, that's for sure. That's a strawman, anyway. Most evangelicals are not Calvinists at all. It's what you do with Christ that counts.

You cannot be a Hindu-Christian - you cannot serve two masters. I've been to the Hindu Krishna temple in Moundsville, WV. I've toured the main area where all the idols are kept and worshipped. Gave me a creepy feeling, actually. But I was blessed when some women (in the cult) came up to me and began asking questions about Christianity. I didn't persue them at all, just gave them answers to their questions. I remember that while I was talking to them a monk (with six toes on one foot) came up to break up the discussion (must have been his priesthood power not wanting a woman to usurp his position or something). I told him Krishna was not Christ (as he was claiming), and that was about it. I left, but at least the questioning women had some answers. Maybe some even got saved down the road, who knows? One plants, another waters, God reaps! Understand they dug up two bodies on that Krishna Temple compound. Hinduism is not all it's cracked up to be.

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. "

Did you happen to get lured into the Hare Krishna/Hindu movement over on CARM? I know they were proselytizing over there. One of the persons who posts here, I believe, became attracted to it. Just a question, pretty sure you didn't. That's one of the problems I have with aplogetics sites - those weak in the faith, or the unconverted, are often victimized by numerous cults that seem attractive on the outside. Inwardly, they are ravenous wolves.

[Libby]

I simply went back home. I found SRF many, many years ago and studied with them for three years, before I dropped out. Mainly, just got busy with life, kids, etc. and put it on the back burner. Fell into unbelief for many years (agnostic). Much later, had a profound experience of God in the Book of Mormon (which is why I know, at least, some of it is inspired by God). Had some problems with other things in the LDS religion, so I left. Wanted to go back to mainstream Christianity, because I considered it my "roots". I was raised Christian and baptized in a Baptist Church....but, I sure didn't know enough about fundamentalist Christianity, to really know what I was getting into. Again, problems...things I just could not accept as true (mainly elitist beliefs). So, I finally found my way back home, to the only religion that has ever made sense to me. (Actually, not just SRF, but most of eastern philosophy/religion...Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, etc, all resonant with my soul).. I am a great admirer of the Zen Master, Thich Nhat Hanh, as well.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I simply went back home. I found SRF many, many years ago and studied with them for three years, before I dropped out. Mainly, just got busy with life, kids, etc. and put it on the back burner. Fell into unbelief for many years (agnostic). Much later, had a profound experience of God in the Book of Mormon (which is why I know, at least, some of it is inspired by God). Had some problems with other things in the LDS religion, so I left. Wanted to go back to mainstream Christianity, because I considered it my "roots". I was raised Christian and baptized in a Baptist Church....but, I sure didn't know enough about fundamentalist Christianity, to really know what I was getting into. Again, problems...things I just could not accept as true (mainly elitist beliefs). So, I finally found my way back home, to the only religion that has ever made sense to me. (Actually, not just SRF, but most of eastern philosophy/religion...Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, etc, all resonant with my soul).. I am a great admirer of the Zen Master, Thich Nhat Hanh, as well.

So basically your lost. Isn't that a fair ***essment?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So basically your lost. Isn't that a fair ***essment?

No.

None of us are truly lost. We are doing what we need to do, to find God.

(That's "you're", btw - Apologette is very fussy about spelling/grammar errors)

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

No.

None of us are truly lost. We are doing what we need to do, to find God.

I think you are. BTW what is wrong with following God's word given to us in the Bible?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I think you are.

I know you do.

BTW what is wrong with following God's word given to us in the Bible?

Nothing. I try to follow God's word. I just can't believe that everything in the Bible is actually from God. I think quite a lot of it is from man.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Nothing. I try to follow God's word. I just can't believe that everything in the Bible is actually from God. I think quite a lot of it is from man.

So instead of believing in God's word and following God's work you ***ume that it is incorrect and you make up your own beliefs where YOU see fit.