Does your faith depend on physical evidences?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Apologette

You might not practice it, but do you believe it?

As I said above, some of it is true, some of it, I do not believe...which is why I am no longer a practicing Mormon. A lot of what I don't believe has more to do with my rejection of conservative/fundamentalist Christianity, than with Mormonism, per se. I see more truth in Mormonism than in Calvinism (for example), but I think both of these Christian views have a fairly distorted view of Christ and who he really was.

[jdjhere]

Libby stated: "I am not LDS, nor do I plan on returning - I am a Hindu-Christian, but I do think the LDS have "some" things right>"

I actually AGREE with that Libby, the LDS DO INDEED have "some" things right-trying to live a good clean life, trying their best to love people, very friend and family oriented, very moral... these are ALL the right things to do and I am FOR them in that area. Here are my issues with their beliefs from their theology: they have "a form of godliness, but DENY the power thereof"... (2 Tim 3:5) they DENY who the REAL HISTORICAL Jesus of Nazareth was and IS. He is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, God the Son. To them He is one of many gods who died for them but could not COMPLETELY forgive ALL their sins. They believe in a different Jesus than Evangelicals do because of their "restored" gospel.

2 Cor. 11:3-4 "But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted-- you may well put up with it."

Because this is what happened to Joseph Smith when he prayed:

Gal 1:6-9: "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, (Moroni) preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

Now I have ZERO problems with the modern day LDS moral code (though I know a few and BELIEVE ME, they DO have SECRET sins!) but I DO have BIG issues with their polytheistic theology.

The prince of darkness is a LIAR, and father of lies, he was a murderer from the beginning, and he said something to Adam and Eve before they sinned-

Genesis 2:16-17 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
Genesis 3:5 "You will NOT surely die," the serpent said to the woman," For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God , knowing good and evil."
Again, satan is a LIAR, and father of lies. Why would LDS try to do what he is trying to do?

Satan always has a "crafty" explanation for his lies and deceptions. he is STILL trying to be "like God" (Isaiah 14:14) "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."
and LDS missionaries are trying to become a god as well.

Isaiah 43:10 "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

You REALLY need to believe this LDS.

Those are the issues I have.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

As I said above, some of it is true, some of it, I do not believe...which is why I am no longer a practicing Mormon. A lot of what I don't believe has more to do with my rejection of conservative/fundamentalist Christianity, than with Mormonism, per se. I see more truth in Mormonism than in Calvinism (for example), but I think both of these Christian views have a fairly distorted view of Christ and who he really was.

So, you do not believe in the Bible when it says that you are born dead to God and need to be born-again? That God calls those, whom He wills?

I don't think you reject Chrisitianity because of Calvinism, since you could very well go to an arminian Church where that isn't taught. No, I think you actually don't believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Second Person of the Godhead, Who shed His blood for sinful man. Am I right? In fact, you've even (here) questioned whether Jesus existed or not. When you stand in judgment, you won't be able to blame your rejection of the Gospel on Calvin, that's for sure. That's a strawman, anyway. Most evangelicals are not Calvinists at all. It's what you do with Christ that counts.

You cannot be a Hindu-Christian - you cannot serve two masters. I've been to the Hindu Krishna temple in Moundsville, WV. I've toured the main area where all the idols are kept and worshipped. Gave me a creepy feeling, actually. But I was blessed when some women (in the cult) came up to me and began asking questions about Christianity. I didn't persue them at all, just gave them answers to their questions. I remember that while I was talking to them a monk (with six toes on one foot) came up to break up the discussion (must have been his priesthood power not wanting a woman to usurp his position or something). I told him Krishna was not Christ (as he was claiming), and that was about it. I left, but at least the questioning women had some answers. Maybe some even got saved down the road, who knows? One plants, another waters, God reaps! Understand they dug up two bodies on that Krishna Temple compound. Hinduism is not all it's cracked up to be.

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. "

Did you happen to get lured into the Hare Krishna/Hindu movement over on CARM? I know they were proselytizing over there. One of the persons who posts here, I believe, became attracted to it. Just a question, pretty sure you didn't. That's one of the problems I have with aplogetics sites - those weak in the faith, or the unconverted, are often victimized by numerous cults that seem attractive on the outside. Inwardly, they are ravenous wolves.

[Libby]

I simply went back home. I found SRF many, many years ago and studied with them for three years, before I dropped out. Mainly, just got busy with life, kids, etc. and put it on the back burner. Fell into unbelief for many years (agnostic). Much later, had a profound experience of God in the Book of Mormon (which is why I know, at least, some of it is inspired by God). Had some problems with other things in the LDS religion, so I left. Wanted to go back to mainstream Christianity, because I considered it my "roots". I was raised Christian and baptized in a Baptist Church....but, I sure didn't know enough about fundamentalist Christianity, to really know what I was getting into. Again, problems...things I just could not accept as true (mainly elitist beliefs). So, I finally found my way back home, to the only religion that has ever made sense to me. (Actually, not just SRF, but most of eastern philosophy/religion...Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, etc, all resonant with my soul).. I am a great admirer of the Zen Master, Thich Nhat Hanh, as well.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I simply went back home. I found SRF many, many years ago and studied with them for three years, before I dropped out. Mainly, just got busy with life, kids, etc. and put it on the back burner. Fell into unbelief for many years (agnostic). Much later, had a profound experience of God in the Book of Mormon (which is why I know, at least, some of it is inspired by God). Had some problems with other things in the LDS religion, so I left. Wanted to go back to mainstream Christianity, because I considered it my "roots". I was raised Christian and baptized in a Baptist Church....but, I sure didn't know enough about fundamentalist Christianity, to really know what I was getting into. Again, problems...things I just could not accept as true (mainly elitist beliefs). So, I finally found my way back home, to the only religion that has ever made sense to me. (Actually, not just SRF, but most of eastern philosophy/religion...Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, etc, all resonant with my soul).. I am a great admirer of the Zen Master, Thich Nhat Hanh, as well.

So basically your lost. Isn't that a fair ***essment?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So basically your lost. Isn't that a fair ***essment?

No.

None of us are truly lost. We are doing what we need to do, to find God.

(That's "you're", btw - Apologette is very fussy about spelling/grammar errors)

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

No.

None of us are truly lost. We are doing what we need to do, to find God.

I think you are. BTW what is wrong with following God's word given to us in the Bible?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I think you are.

I know you do.

BTW what is wrong with following God's word given to us in the Bible?

Nothing. I try to follow God's word. I just can't believe that everything in the Bible is actually from God. I think quite a lot of it is from man.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Nothing. I try to follow God's word. I just can't believe that everything in the Bible is actually from God. I think quite a lot of it is from man.

So instead of believing in God's word and following God's work you ***ume that it is incorrect and you make up your own beliefs where YOU see fit.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

No.

None of us are truly lost. We are doing what we need to do, to find God.

(That's "you're", btw - Apologette is very fussy about spelling/grammar errors)

The difference between Christianity and the religious systems you just metioned is this:

Most if not all "religions" prescribe a way for you to find God - through various methods such as yoga, meditation, works of some sort, etc.

Christianity is a relationship with God through Jesus Christ, and He finds us.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So instead of believing in God's word and following God's work you ***ume that it is incorrect and you make up your own beliefs where YOU see fit.

Well, no. I haven't "made anything up".

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Apologette

The difference between Christianity and the religious systems you just metioned is this:

Most if not all "religions" prescribe a way for you to find God - through various methods such as yoga, meditation, works of some sort, etc.

Christianity is a relationship with God through Jesus Christ, and He finds us.

Every religion is about establishing a relationship with God, whether you think you are the pursuer or God is. It's, actually, a little of both, IMO.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Well, no. I haven't "made anything up".

Whatever you believe that is not in line with the Bible is made up by you and your excuse is that you don't really believe that the Bible is God's word.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Every religion is about establishing a relationship with God. . .

God certainly doesn't sanction false religions and belief in false gods.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Whatever you believe that is not in line with the Bible is made up by you and your excuse is that you don't really believe that the Bible is God's word.

Jesus said that "I" Am the Way. Not Yogananda. Not Buddha. Not Mohammed. If you have the wrong "Way," you'll get lost.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Whatever you believe that is not in line with the Bible is made up by you and your excuse is that you don't really believe that the Bible is God's word.

My "excuse" is that I have a relationship with God that shows me that some of what is in the Bible (especially the Old Testament) is from man, not God.

I know what you "believe", Billy, and that's fine. We are all en***led to our opinons. You will consider me lost and making stuff up, etc, etc. and that's fine. I'm not going to argue in circles with you, because you are not at all open to any alternate view. You are where you are...and I am where I am. I believe God loves both of us.....all of us.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

My "excuse" is that I have a relationship with God that shows me that some of what is in the Bible (especially the Old Testament) is from man, not God.

I know what you "believe", Billy, and that's fine. We are all en***led to our opinons. You will consider me lost and making stuff up, etc, etc. and that's fine. I'm not going to argue in circles with you, because you are not at all open to any alternate view. You are where you are...and I am where I am. I believe God loves both of us.....all of us.

Well, let's go to the New Testament then. Do you believe the Gospel accounts? Do you believe Jesus rose from the dead? If so, don't you think that it's important to believe in the Jesus of the New Testament? Nowhere did Jesus say He'd share his glory with another, right? Not with some guru, some other deity (falsely called god), not with any man. Jesus told us to go into all the world and preach His Gospel - He didn't say "go into all the world and preach the Old Testament." The Gospel is what the OT points to. I don't think we need to get bogged down in OT narratives. There are parts of it that I don't "get" either. But I do "get" Jesus. I know He overcame death, and that in Him, we have eternal life.

The Jesus of Yogananda is an ascended master who lived in India and practiced Yoga and taught his closest disciples God-realization. This is bologna. It's simply an attempt to lend some kind of Christian validity to Yogananda Hinduism. This is just as bad as the Mormon Jesus who came to the New World and sank cities and killed thousands. A lot of groups tell you about "Jesus," but if their Jesus is not the same One that the Bible speaks about, their "Jesus" is a false Christ.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

My "excuse" is that I have a relationship with God that shows me that some of what is in the Bible (especially the Old Testament) is from man, not God.

Since you believe that God has told you that significant chunks of the Bible are false please give me a list of which books/sections you are referring to.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Since you believe that God has told you that significant chunks of the Bible are false please give me a list of which books/sections you are referring to.

No, that would be much too time consuming.

Any section that attributes genocide, the killing of whole races of people, including their animals, any section that claims God "hates" or is "wrathful" and/or "vengeful" is a pretty sure bet, not actually God speaking.

[Libby]

Catherine, I believe Jesus rose from the dead, yes. I believe he healed the sick and fed the poor. I believe Jesus was perfect goodness and in perfect harmony with God.

I also believe he spent the "missing years" studying with a God-Realized teacher and that he did teach techniques of God-Realization to his Apostles.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Any section that attributes genocide, the killing of whole races of people, including their animals, any section that claims God "hates". . .

Tell me the exact nature of God's revelation to you in which he told you that these sections of the Bible are false.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I also believe he spent the "missing years" studying with a God-Realized teacher and that he did teach techniques of God-Realization to his Apostles.

Jesus is God. Did you really think Christ needed a "God-Realized teacher" to teach him?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

Catherine, I believe Jesus rose from the dead, yes. I believe he healed the sick and fed the poor. I believe Jesus was perfect goodness and in perfect harmony with God.

I also believe he spent the "missing years" studying with a God-Realized teacher and that he did teach techniques of God-Realization to his Apostles.

Well, some people will fall for anything. All this "Jesus in India" teaching is just mythological. Reminds me of Nephites. The Bible says Jesus grew up in Nazareth, that would be the Holy Land. That is not India. He was a Hebrew, a Son born under the Law. He didn't need to learn God-realization techniques, nor did he ever encourage any of His disciples to practice yoga or meditation or give them a certain mantra. It's simply a silly lie. But you swallow it, right, while at the same time rejecting the Word of God as flawed?

Remember that Luke got his information from Mary - she would have known if Jesus had some kind of enlightenment tour in India!

Jesus was God in the flesh, not God in His mind. God, Himself, took on the additional nature of humanity, that He might come here and suffer the consequences of His own law on our behalf: "the wages of sin is death."

Yoganada (who said he was the reincarnation of William the Conqueror) got fat and rich off of his disciples. You can follow him, or Christ. I think I'll follow the one who overcame death, and who was not subject to it.

Yogananda said:

The average man cannot think clearly . . . He needs the master mind of a Dictator in order to think right and do right." - Yogananda. "Interview". East West Magazine, February 1934, p. 25.

"A master brain like that of Mussolini does more good than millions of social organizations of group intelligence." - Yogananda. "Interview, East-West, February 1934, p. 3.

and

"Hitler is to be admired for leaving the League of Nations because peace can never be attained by the victor and vanquished at***ude, but on a basis of equality and brotherhood. Instead of preventing Hitler from having equal armament with other nations, the other nations should reduce the armaments to the level of Germany, then the millions of dollars that are thrown away on idle battleships could be used for national or international prosperity. America, France, and Great Britain should reduce their armaments first, and thereby destroy the desire of Japan, Russia, and Germany to become equally armed. An insulted, snubbed Germany, if it gets away from the uplifting guidance of Hitler, may join Russia and make her a more powerful enemy of France and so on. The Allies must reduce their own armaments first, and then they will find out that the example speaks louder than words. [Swami Yogananda. "Christmas message to the Nations of the Earth". East-West Magazine, December, 1933, p. 25)" (I'm sure you recall the holocaust and what happened to the Chosen People of God whom Hitler attempted to annihilate)


Let me tell you something, Libby, if you want to know about the demonic rule of Hitler and how he hated Christ and Chrsitianity, read this:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1595552464/...ptwo=&hvqmt=#_

I promise you, this is a real life-changing book. Give it a try.

Jesus said:

Matt. 23: 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

My Master is Jesus, so I am compelled to tell you the truth. But I won't bother you anymore since I believe that at this time you have exchanged Jesus for Yogananda.

[Libby]

As I expected, you know nothing but falsehoods about Self-Realization Fellowship, Catherine. This is why I am not interested in your links or any other information from you, whether it's about Mormonism, SRF or even Christianity.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

As I expected, you know nothing but falsehoods about Self-Realization Fellowship, Catherine. This is why I am not interested in your links or any other information from you, whether it's about Mormonism, SRF or even Christianity.

I'm no expert in SRF or Yognanada, but the stuff I've read simply points to the fact that it's an attempt to Americanize Hinduism. There are thousands of gurus all over the place, many of whom come to this country to make their fortune and live pretty much in luxury. They all preach just about the same thing - follow me, I've got the "way" to god consciousness. Same thing. Plus, I've seen that SRF has many proselytizers (just like Mormonism). That's one of the major gripes people mention about them on the net.

As I said, I think you're sold out to Yogananda - can't serve two master, Libby. You'll see that down the road.

But this forum is to discuss Mormonism, not some aberrant Hindu ideology.