Does your faith depend on physical evidences?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Apologette

I'm no expert in SRF or Yognanada, but the stuff I've read simply points to the fact that it's an attempt to Americanize Hinduism. There are thousands of gurus all over the place, many of whom come to this country to make their fortune and live pretty much in luxury. They all preach just about the same thing - follow me, I've got the "way" to god consciousness. Same thing. Plus, I've seen that SRF has many proselytizers (just like Mormonism). That's one of the major gripes people mention about them on the net.

As I said, I think you're sold out to Yogananda - can't serve two master, Libby. You'll see that down the road.

But this forum is to discuss Mormonism, not some aberrant Hindu ideology.

Well, I agree, some are fakes, just as some popular TV Christians (and others) are fakes. Just because there are fakes, doesn't mean the real thing does not exist. Yogananda had some very rich devotees, who wanted to give and help his cause, but he never owned a thing, himself. He was very careful about that and did not want his name on anything, which is why the organization of Self Realization Fellowship came into being. This organization has been around for almost a hundred years. It's very stable and has some of the most devoted and wonderful people you could ever meet.

SRF does not proseltyze, except to give out information (brochures and such) to anyone who is interested. Not sure why you would complain about proseltyzing, when your religion (Christianity) is the King of proseltyzing.

[Libby]

But this forum is to discuss Mormonism, not some aberrant Hindu ideology.

You were thanking me, just awhile ago, for sharing. Don't expect to make negative comments about my religion, without a comeback. If you continue talking about it, especially in the negative, I will respond.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

You were thanking me, just awhile ago, for sharing. Don't expect to make negative comments about my religion, without a comeback.

You aren't saved from either the LDS point of view NOR the Christian point of view. Why should either side listen to what you have to say?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

Well, I agree, some are fakes, just as some popular TV Christians (and others) are fakes. Just because there are fakes, doesn't mean the real thing does not exist. Yogananda had some very rich devotees, who wanted to give and help his cause, but he never owned a thing, himself. He was very careful about that and did not want his name on anything, which is why the organization of Self Realization Fellowship came into being. This organization has been around for almost a hundred years. It's very stable and has some of the most devoted and wonderful people you could ever meet.

SRF does not proseltyze, except to give out information (brochures and such) to anyone who is interested. Not sure why you would complain about proseltyzing, when your religion (Christianity) is the King of proseltyzing.

I don't stand on street corners p***ing out literature - although I know some Chrsitians do - even picketing Mormon temples and pageants. I'm opposed to that. I looked at a few sites on SRF which stated that they agressively proselytize.

So what if Yogananda didn't technicially "own" anything, big deal. He lived high on the hog. Cult leaders typically live very well due to "donations" from their followers. Look at Smith! Your Yogananda retired to an "estate" (the Encinatas Hermitage close to Swami's point) where he wrote his autobiography, pretty much Scripture for SRF.

Regarding a person who spent time with him:

[Shelly Trimmer] spent about a year with [Yogananda] at the SRF headquarters in Los Angeles but then left.... Although he has retained great affection and respect for Yogananda, he also acknowledges his weaknesses. “He loved to order women about—after all he was a Hindu.... He had a violent temper and was a little bit arrogant” (Rawlinson, 1997).

Well, if you want to follow someone who had a violent temper and was arrogant, that's your choice. I'll follow Jesus.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Apologette

I don't stand on street corners p***ing out literature - although I know some Chrsitians do - even picketing Mormon temples and pageants. I'm opposed to that. I looked at a few sites on SRF which stated that they agressively proselytize.

I don't know what sites you were looking at, but SRF Monks and Nuns live a very cloistered life and most definitely do not stand on street corners asking for donations or p***ing out literature. You really need to get your information from the source, instead of hate sites.

So what if Yogananda didn't technicially "own" anything, big deal. He lived high on the hog. Cult leaders typically live very well due to "donations" from their followers. Look at Smith!

Yeah, he lived "high on the hog". lol Yogananda was very well thought of, and filled auditoriums all over this country, when he lectured. He came here in the 1920's, long before eastern religion became popular in this country. Have you ever read any of his actual writings?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You aren't saved from either the LDS point of view NOR the Christian point of view. Why should either side listen to what you have to say?

Feel perfectly free to ignore me, Billy. It won't hurt my feelings.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't know what sites you were looking at, but SRF Monks and Nuns live a very cloistered life and most definitely do not stand on street corners asking for donations or p***ing out literature. You really need to get your information from the source, instead of hate sites.



Yeah, he lived "high on the hog". lol Yogananda was very well thought of, and filled auditoriums all over this country, when he lectured. He came here in the 1920's, long before eastern religion became popular in this country. Have you ever read any of his actual writings?

I guess you missed this part:

[Shelly Trimmer] spent about a year with [Yogananda] at the SRF headquarters in Los Angeles but then left.... Although he has retained great affection and respect for Yogananda, he also acknowledges his weaknesses. “He loved to order women about—after all he was a Hindu.... He had a violent temper and was a little bit arrogant” (Rawlinson, 1997).

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Feel perfectly free to ignore me, Billy. It won't hurt my feelings.

I am sure I wouldn't hurt your feelings but I wasn't asking about your feelings.

You aren't saved from either the LDS point of view NOR the Christian point of view. Why should either side listen to what you have to say?

[Apologette]

In any case, a follower of Yogananda's SFR doesn't believe in materiality:

The material universe is not real. [Paramahansa Yogananda, Ak 182]
There is no material universe; its warp and woof is . . . illusion. [Paramahansa Yogananda, Autobiography of a Yogi, ch. 30.]

Never believe that you live. [Paramahansa Yogananda, Autobiography of a Yogi. [Ha 88]

The world is nothing more than a cosmic dream — This life is a dream. [Paramahansa Yogananda Ak 237, 240]

When he [man] awakens in cosmic consciousness, he will effortlessly dematerialise the illusions of the cosmic dream. [Paramahansa Yogananda, ch. 34]

Babaji observed. "The divine realm extends to the earthly, but the latter [is] illusory". [In Paramahansa Yogananda's Autobiography ch. 34]

So, since we are all in some giant cosmic dream, who needs "physical evidences" at all? I wonder if he stole this stuff from Mary Baker Eddy?

[Radix]

Strange to see how you run with this Libby. There are several people mentioned in the Bible we have no direct evidence for. Now Josephus, an early Roman historian who was Jewish did write about Jesus. That is a non Christian reference to Jesus from the first century.

Now we know that the Jewish people were real. Babylonians, Romans and many others actually existed. When I took a world history cl*** in a public college, several of these were discussed. There was never a single mention of Nephites, Jaredites or Lamanites. Everything said of these so called civilizations comes from a single individual who had a rock in a hat pulled over his face. There is no real evidence any of these civilizations ever existed. We have asked you to provide evidence to this, you have provided NOTHING to back that up. Lots of hype (one could say "milk") and speculation, but nothing with any real meat to it.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Apologette

In any case, a follower of Yogananda's SFR doesn't believe in materiality:

The material universe is not real. [Paramahansa Yogananda, Ak 182]
There is no material universe; its warp and woof is . . . illusion. [Paramahansa Yogananda, Autobiography of a Yogi, ch. 30.]

Never believe that you live. [Paramahansa Yogananda, Autobiography of a Yogi. [Ha 88]

The world is nothing more than a cosmic dream — This life is a dream. [Paramahansa Yogananda Ak 237, 240]

When he [man] awakens in cosmic consciousness, he will effortlessly dematerialise the illusions of the cosmic dream. [Paramahansa Yogananda, ch. 34]

Babaji observed. "The divine realm extends to the earthly, but the latter [is] illusory". [In Paramahansa Yogananda's Autobiography ch. 34]

So, since we are all in some giant cosmic dream, who needs "physical evidences" at all? I wonder if he stole this stuff from Mary Baker Eddy?

I don't think he needed to steal it from anyone. These are well established Hindu beliefs...much older than Christianity.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am sure I wouldn't hurt your feelings but I wasn't asking about your feelings.

You aren't saved from either the LDS point of view NOR the Christian point of view. Why should either side listen to what you have to say?

Not sure what point you want to make, Billy. Frankly, I don't think anyone listens to anyone, on this forum. Everyone pretty much has their own beliefs (prejudices) and not a lot of listening going on.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Radix

Strange to see how you run with this Libby. There are several people mentioned in the Bible we have no direct evidence for. Now Josephus, an early Roman historian who was Jewish did write about Jesus. That is a non Christian reference to Jesus from the first century.

Now we know that the Jewish people were real. Babylonians, Romans and many others actually existed. When I took a world history cl*** in a public college, several of these were discussed. There was never a single mention of Nephites, Jaredites or Lamanites. Everything said of these so called civilizations comes from a single individual who had a rock in a hat pulled over his face. There is no real evidence any of these civilizations ever existed. We have asked you to provide evidence to this, you have provided NOTHING to back that up. Lots of hype (one could say "milk") and speculation, but nothing with any real meat to it.

Radix, even most Christians admit that the writings from Josephus, about Jesus, are possibly a forgery, by some Christian who wanted to invent some "physical evidence".

Most unbiased (non-Christian) ancient history scholars claim there is no real physical evidence of the person called Jesus.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Radix, even most Christians admit that the writings from Josephus, about Jesus, are possibly a forgery, by some Christian who wanted to invent some "physical evidence".

Where did you come up with the statistic that most Christians believe that Josphus' writings about Christ are a forgery?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Radix, even most Christians admit that the writings from Josephus, about Jesus, are possibly a forgery, by some Christian who wanted to invent some "physical evidence".

BTW if you want to compare like with like we should compare evidence for the jewish people verses evidence for the nephite people, not an individual within each of the people groups.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Where did you come up with the statistic that most Christians believe that Josphus' writings about Christ are a forgery?

I've seen and heard it many places. Are you going to tell me you have never heard this?

"Despite the best wishes of sincere believers and the erroneous claims of truculent apologists, the Testimonium Flavianum has been demonstrated continually over the centuries to be a forgery, likely interpolated by Catholic Church historian Eusebius in the fourth century. So thorough and universal has been this debunking that very few scholars of repute continued to cite the p***age after the turn of the 19th century. "

http://www.i4m.com/think/bible/jesus_evidence.htm

"For hundreds of years, Catholic historians have used these paragraphs in Josephus' writings as "proof' that Jesus existed. That is, until scholars began to examine the text a little more critically. No serious scholar now believes that any of these p***ages mentioning Jesus were actually written by Josephus. They have been clearly identified as much later additions. They are not the same writing style as Josephus and if they are removed from the text, Josephus' original arguments run in their proper sequence."

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

BTW if you want to compare like with like we should compare evidence for the jewish people verses evidence for the nephite people, not an individual within each of the people groups.

Yes, but since Jesus is the main personage in Christianity, whether or not he existed is at least as important (moreso, actually) than whether or not Nephites existed.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I've seen and heard it many places. Are you going to tell me you have never heard this?

I was questioning your statistic that MOST Christians believe Josephus' writings about Christ to be a forgery.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, but since Jesus is the main personage in Christianity, whether or not he existed is at least as important (moreso, actually) than whether or not Nephites existed.

Yea but if we are going to compare like with like then we should compare evidence for jews verses evidence for nephites. Christians are not asking LDS for evidence for specific individuals within the nephite population but rather evidence for the population as a whole.

[Libby]

I have seen critics ask for physical evidence that Moroni existed, or Nephi or Lehi, so yes, they do ask about individuals, sometimes.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I was questioning your statistic that MOST Christians believe Josephus' writings about Christ to be a forgery.

Well, I retract that, because I don't know what MOST Christians believe on this, but I HAVE known a few Christians who have admitted the Josephus stuff is not reliable. I really thought that was pretty common knowledge.

[Libby]

Here is a short thread on the subject, at CARM, and there certainly seems to be some controversy and doubt about the Josephus writings.

I seem to recall that even Matt Slick said they were forgeries. I'll have to see I can find something from him, on the matter.

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...light=Josephus

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Well, I retract that, because I don't know what MOST Christians believe on this, but I HAVE known a few Christians who have admitted the Josephus stuff is not reliable. I really thought that was pretty common knowledge.

This is discussed in the link I provided several days ago after the quote below.

Originally Posted by Billyray

This certainly has not been disproven as you claim. Below is a portion from Josephus that speaks about Christ. You can also read about the controversy surrounding this later in the article


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

". . .Flavius Josephus (c. 37–c. 100), a Jew and Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavians, wrote the Antiquities of the Jews in 93 CE. In these works, Jesus is mentioned twice, though scholars debate their authenticity. The one directly concerning Jesus has come to be known as the Testimonium Flavianum.
In the first p***age, called the Testimonium Flavianum, it is written:

About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease to follow him, for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvellous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.[73]"

[Libby]

Well, Matt takes a kind of "maybe/maybe not" approach, but I think there is more evidence that they were probably forgeries than not.

http://carm.org/regarding-quotes-his...us-about-jesus

[Libby]

Why were you presenting it as physical evidence, when you knew a very large shadow has been cast on the information?