Does your faith depend on physical evidences?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Why were you presenting it as physical evidence, when you knew a very large shadow has been cast on the information?

Because it hasn't been disproven like you ***ume it has.


You didn't even bother to read the link that you just provided.

http://carm.org/regarding-quotes-his...us-about-jesus

". . .Even if both versions have been tampered with, the core of them both mention Jesus as an historical figure who was able to perform many surprising feats, was crucified, and that there were followers of Jesus who were still in existence at the time of its writing. . ."

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Because it hasn't been disproven like you ***ume it has.


You didn't even bother to read the link that you just provided.

http://carm.org/regarding-quotes-his...us-about-jesus

". . .Even if both versions have been tampered with, the core of them both mention Jesus as an historical figure who was able to perform many surprising feats, was crucified, and that there were followers of Jesus who were still in existence at the time of its writing. . ."

No, I read the whole thing. I would imagine many Christian scholars are going to give a lot more benefit of doubt, than non-Christian scholars, who seem quite sure that the mentions of Jesus were all added in.

[Radix]

Originally Posted by Libby

Radix, even most Christians admit that the writings from Josephus, about Jesus, are possibly a forgery, by some Christian who wanted to invent some "physical evidence".

Most unbiased (non-Christian) ancient history scholars claim there is no real physical evidence of the person called Jesus.

I have never heard that one about Josephus Libby.

NO ONE has ever claimed they had physical evidence of Jesus. Other than bones, I'm not really sure what "these" people mean when it comes to physical evidence. But this is just side stepping the issues I brought up.

We have plenty of evidence of the many civilizations mentioned in the Bible, no evidence of any civilization unique to the Book of Mormon. We know where many of the cities of the Bible are located, not one city unique to the Book of Mormon has ever been located. Not a single one. Yet there are those gullible enough to go on Book of Mormon tours.

[Radix]

Originally Posted by Libby

I've seen and heard it many places. Are you going to tell me you have never heard this?

"Despite the best wishes of sincere believers and the erroneous claims of truculent apologists, the Testimonium Flavianum has been demonstrated continually over the centuries to be a forgery, likely interpolated by Catholic Church historian Eusebius in the fourth century. So thorough and universal has been this debunking that very few scholars of repute continued to cite the p***age after the turn of the 19th century. "

http://www.i4m.com/think/bible/jesus_evidence.htm

"For hundreds of years, Catholic historians have used these paragraphs in Josephus' writings as "proof' that Jesus existed. That is, until scholars began to examine the text a little more critically. No serious scholar now believes that any of these p***ages mentioning Jesus were actually written by Josephus. They have been clearly identified as much later additions. They are not the same writing style as Josephus and if they are removed from the text, Josephus' original arguments run in their proper sequence."

You can go to Wikipedia and look up the references. Subject is Josephus on Jesus. Here we find

"The overwhelming majority of modern scholars consider the reference in Book 20, Chapter 9, 1 of the Antiquities to "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James" to be authentic and to have the highest level of authenticity among the references of Josephus to Christianity.[4][1][2][5][6] Almost all modern scholars consider the reference in Book 18, Chapter 5, 2 of the Antiquities to the imprisonment and death of John the Baptist to be also authentic.[7][8][9]"

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I would imagine many Christian scholars are going to give a lot more benefit of doubt, than non-Christian scholars, who seem quite sure that the mentions of Jesus were all added in.

Where does it say that all non Christian scholars believe that the all of the mentions of Jesus were added in?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

You were thanking me, just awhile ago, for sharing. Don't expect to make negative comments about my religion, without a comeback. If you continue talking about it, especially in the negative, I will respond.

I was thanking you for sharing what you were involved with - I don't want to turn this forum into a discussion of Hinduism. If you want to discuss Hinduism, feel free to private message me.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

No, I read the whole thing. I would imagine many Christian scholars are going to give a lot more benefit of doubt, than non-Christian scholars, who seem quite sure that the mentions of Jesus were all added in.

So, do you believe that Paul existed? Or, Peter? Or any of those figures contemporary with Jesus? Or did they all just make up this mythical character named Jesus and then died for Him?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Because it hasn't been disproven like you ***ume it has.


You didn't even bother to read the link that you just provided.

http://carm.org/regarding-quotes-his...us-about-jesus

". . .Even if both versions have been tampered with, the core of them both mention Jesus as an historical figure who was able to perform many surprising feats, was crucified, and that there were followers of Jesus who were still in existence at the time of its writing. . ."

You know what I think. If a person has abandoned the Jesus of the Scripture, the best way to go would be to pretend He never existed. It's purely a silly tactic, since even atheists acknowledge He existed. Even John Spong believes Jesus existed. It's simply a pretense.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Apologette

I was thanking you for sharing what you were involved with - I don't want to turn this forum into a discussion of Hinduism. If you want to discuss Hinduism, feel free to private message me.

Then, why are you discussing it on other threads? I really do not care to have a discussion of my religion with you, as I know that you will use lies, smears and distortions, as you do with Mormonism. ..and turn around a claim that you are working for God. Amazing.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Radix

You can go to Wikipedia and look up the references. Subject is Josephus on Jesus. Here we find

"The overwhelming majority of modern scholars consider the reference in Book 20, Chapter 9, 1 of the Antiquities to "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James" to be authentic and to have the highest level of authenticity among the references of Josephus to Christianity.[4][1][2][5][6] Almost all modern scholars consider the reference in Book 18, Chapter 5, 2 of the Antiquities to the imprisonment and death of John the Baptist to be also authentic.[7][8][9]"

Do you really think Wikipedia is the final word?

I don't know how many believe or don't believe that the Josephus writings are a forgery, but it seems like everyone, even Matt Slick, believes there is some question about them. The couple of examples I posted indicated that the mentions of Jesus were all forged...and that's what I had heard, previously, from various sources.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

Why were you presenting it as physical evidence, when you knew a very large shadow has been cast on the information?

Why do you even ask for evidence since, according to your belief, the material world is an illusion?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Why do you even ask for evidence since, according to your belief, the material world is an illusion?

The critics of Mormonism are the ones who started this whole conversation about physical evidence. My faith in God/Jesus is not based on physical evidence.

[Libby]

Oh, and, as critics are so fond of saying, my beliefs are off the table here. This is the Mormonism forum. Take your off-topic comments to the proper forum.

(Note: I'm not really concerned about off-topic conversations, just pointing out the double standards employed by some)

[Radix]

Originally Posted by Libby

Do you really think Wikipedia is the final word?

I don't know how many believe or don't believe that the Josephus writings are a forgery, but it seems like everyone, even Matt Slick, believes there is some question about them. The couple of examples I posted indicated that the mentions of Jesus were all forged...and that's what I had heard, previously, from various sources.

No I do not, that is why I mentioned you could look up the references listed.

[Apologette]

This link shows extra-biblical sources for the existence of Christ and early Christianity:

http://www.westarkchurchofchrist.org...rabiblical.htm

[Libby]

Wow, that link includes gnostic sources....cool. There are even more of those, in the video I posted.

What I see, before those sources, are a few sources that mention Christians, but not anything about Jesus, himself....except for the controversial Josephus writings.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

Wow, that link includes gnostic sources....cool. There are even more of those, in the video I posted.

What I see, before those sources, are a few sources that mention Christians, but not anything about Jesus, himself....except for the controversial Josephus writings.

Yes, it does. Gnostics were contemporary with early Christians. They believed that Jesus existed (although they denied the incarnation).

So, what's the bottom line here? Are you trying to say that Jesus did not exist? Even the Mormons will fight you on that. What are you trying to say? It seems quite obvious that you are denigrating the reality of Christ as a person who lived in Jerusalem in 1 AD. Are you? Are you trying to say that the New Testament is a pack of myths and that Jesus was a fictional character?

Whatever you are saying, it is very confusing and I'm wondering if that isn't intentional.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

The critics of Mormonism are the ones who started this whole conversation about physical evidence. My faith in God/Jesus is not based on physical evidence.

Hey, why not say you are a Hindu-Mormon? You can have your own little group. They can chant mantras while reading Nephi! They can say that life is a cosmic dream, that reality is an illusion!

You're the one who put up the thread on "physical evidences" not us.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Yes, it does. Gnostics were contemporary with early Christians. They believed that Jesus existed (although they denied the incarnation).

So, what's the bottom line here? Are you trying to say that Jesus did not exist? Even the Mormons will fight you on that. What are you trying to say? It seems quite obvious that you are denigrating the reality of Christ as a person who lived in Jerusalem in 1 AD. Are you? Are you trying to say that the New Testament is a pack of myths and that Jesus was a fictional character?

Whatever you are saying, it is very confusing and I'm wondering if that isn't intentional.

I wish you would read my posts. Your questions have already been answered.

Yes, I most emphatically believe Jesus existed and still exists. I am not denigrating him, in the least. I follow Jesus and believe he was/is a perfect expression of God.

I brought up "lack of evidence" in a discussion about the Book of Mormon. Christians cry for physical evidence of the Book of Mormon and other writings in Mormonism, but have very little evidence of the things they believe in, like Jesus Christ, Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, etc, etc, on and on. Just shows somewhat of a double standard.

Bottom line, I would like to see the critics of Mormonism cease and desist and leave the LDS in peace with their religion. Allow them to worship God in their own way. God is very loving and accepting of all who love him and try to find and follow him.

[jdjhere]

Libby... this IS a chatroom set up for debate, after all. That is the reason for this website, for Christians to share the Truth of the Gospel and to give reasons for their faith and to defend the Faith, once and all delivered to the saints." You tell us to leave the LDS in peace and allow them to believe in their faith while the whole time they are going from door to door trying to "evangelize" people with their "restored" gospel after telling us we have no authority. The LDS leaders have invited us to show them if they have any errors in their doctrine and when we do, the LDS cry foul. The Bible teaches there will be many false christs and messiahs at some point. It also teaches that people will not put up with "sound doctrine." Do you believe the Bible on these points or do you just pick and chose what you want to believe? I dont mean any disrespect to you, but these are valid questions and I am curious.. do YOU believe there WILL there be false christs and doctrine that is not sound at some point, as pointed out by the apostle Paul? Wolves in sheeps clothing? People saying "Lord, did we not prophesy in your name?" and Jesus saying "Away from me, you evil doers.." Do you believe in a being called satan? If so, that he can appear to be a good being? AND his followers? These things are all things mentioned in the Bible and I just wonder how you interpret these things and what they mean to you. Maybe we should chat in the Hindu area. Do you post in the Hindu section? It would be an interesting discussion. Thank you.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

Why were you presenting it as physical evidence, when you knew a very large shadow has been cast on the information?

Because the perponderance of Christian scholars agree there are extra-biblical references to Chirst. Show us evidence that it's a forgery.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Because the perponderance of Christian scholars agree there are extra-biblical references to Chirst. Show us evidence that it's a forgery.

A preponderance of LDS scholars believe there is good evidence for the Book of Mormon.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

Libby... this IS a chatroom set up for debate, after all. That is the reason for this website, for Christians to share the Truth of the Gospel and to give reasons for their faith and to defend the Faith, once and all delivered to the saints." You tell us to leave the LDS in peace and allow them to believe in their faith while the whole time they are going from door to door trying to "evangelize" people with their "restored" gospel after telling us we have no authority. The LDS leaders have invited us to show them if they have any errors in their doctrine and when we do, the LDS cry foul. The Bible teaches there will be many false christs and messiahs at some point. It also teaches that people will not put up with "sound doctrine." Do you believe the Bible on these points or do you just pick and chose what you want to believe? I dont mean any disrespect to you, but these are valid questions and I am curious.. do YOU believe there WILL there be false christs and doctrine that is not sound at some point, as pointed out by the apostle Paul? Wolves in sheeps clothing? People saying "Lord, did we not prophesy in your name?" and Jesus saying "Away from me, you evil doers.." Do you believe in a being called satan? If so, that he can appear to be a good being? AND his followers? These things are all things mentioned in the Bible and I just wonder how you interpret these things and what they mean to you. Maybe we should chat in the Hindu area. Do you post in the Hindu section? It would be an interesting discussion. Thank you.

JD, yes, LDS go door to door, but they don't go door to door slamming other people's religions. They go door to door to offer their own religion. When Christians (or any other religion) do that, in a loving way, I think that is quite different than setting up websites and workshops to simply bash someone else's religion. Very different.

Yes, I believe many people teach and actually believe falsehoods. Most of all of us believe "some" falsehoods. Most religions (I would say, probably ALL religions) are a mix of truths and falsehoods. But, I think there is enough truth and good in almost every religion, to allow people to get closer to God. I believe that about your religion, Mormonism and my own religion.

Don't you think we would all be better off focusing on our own walk, rather than criticizing someone else's? I sure do. So much more positive we could genuinely share with one another, rather than dwelling in the negative.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

A preponderance of LDS scholars believe there is good evidence for the Book of Mormon.

Which is meaningless. Why don't you go back to Mormonism, since you spend all your time here backing up their claims? You could call yourself a Mormon-Hindu. That might fit, because both groups have views about God which are in no way in line with the Biblical God.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

I wish you would read my posts. Your questions have already been answered.

Yes, I most emphatically believe Jesus existed and still exists. I am not denigrating him, in the least. I follow Jesus and believe he was/is a perfect expression of God.

I brought up "lack of evidence" in a discussion about the Book of Mormon. Christians cry for physical evidence of the Book of Mormon and other writings in Mormonism, but have very little evidence of the things they believe in, like Jesus Christ, Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, etc, etc, on and on. Just shows somewhat of a double standard.

Bottom line, I would like to see the critics of Mormonism cease and desist and leave the LDS in peace with their religion. Allow them to worship God in their own way. God is very loving and accepting of all who love him and try to find and follow him.

In case you missed it, this forum is for Chrsitians to ****yze Mormonism and to discuss the differences with Mormons. Why should we not warn those who are blindly following a false leader who will lead them into eternal separation from God. Who is loving? The one that warns, or the one that keeps their mouth shut?