Does your faith depend on physical evidences?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Apologette

In case you missed it, this forum is for Chrsitians to ****yze Mormonism and to discuss the differences with Mormons. Why should we not warn those who are blindly following a false leader who will lead them into eternal separation from God. Who is loving? The one that warns, or the one that keeps their mouth shut?

Since I don't believe their souls are in jeopardy, I think it is much more loving to allow them to worship in peace.

[Libby]

Okay, Jill has asked me to redirect the discussion of the Nag Hammadi to the Hinduism thread.

If anyone is still interested in a discussion about this video, you will find it here.

The thread: http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...?t=2705&page=2

The video: http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...5&postcount=31

I did get a chance to read the comments, before they were deleted, and wanted to thank those who did participate. It is an interesting subject and does have, somewhat, to do with Mormonism, in that LDS believe there are missing books and information from the Bible. This video discusses that issue.

[Novato]

Originally Posted by Apologette

In case you missed it, this forum is for Chrsitians to ****yze Mormonism and to discuss the differences with Mormons. Why should we not warn those who are blindly following a false leader who will lead them into eternal separation from God. Who is loving? The one that warns, or the one that keeps their mouth shut?

Interesting that someone who calls themselves a Christian cannot spell it correctly.

I think it completely sums up Apologette, simply not worth responding too.

Novato

[Novato]

Originally Posted by Libby

Okay, Jill has asked me to redirect the discussion of the Nag Hammadi to the Hinduism thread.

If anyone is still interested in a discussion about this video, you will find it here.

The thread: http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...?t=2705&page=2

The video: http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...5&postcount=31

I did get a chance to read the comments, before they were deleted, and wanted to thank those who did participate. It is an interesting subject and does have, somewhat, to do with Mormonism, in that LDS believe there are missing books and information from the Bible. This video discusses that issue.

Hey Libs,

I'm back for a little while, going OS again on Sunday. I love your posts however, I do understand why Jill might want to redirect this discussion to another forum.

Having said that however, I personally do consider that this particular subject is relevant to the Church. Joseph Smith stated many times that there were other Scriptures given to others by the Lord.

Look after yourself and keep on the journey.

Much love,

Novato

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Novato

Hey Libs,

I'm back for a little while, going OS again on Sunday. I love your posts however, I do understand why Jill might want to redirect this discussion to another forum.

Having said that however, I personally do consider that this particular subject is relevant to the Church. Joseph Smith stated many times that there were other Scriptures given to others by the Lord.

Look after yourself and keep on the journey.

Much love,

Novato

Well, maybe you should study the difference between Hinduism and Mormonism, and then you might know. Although, I would say there are some similiarities - you think you will become a god, and Hindus think they are God and simply have to realize that.

Why don't you go read the Bhagavad gita - it may just fit your belief system better than the Bible, I'm sure. Maybe you can get the "Authorities" to add it to Doctrine and Covenants as NO prophecy has been coming out of SLC, that's for sure, even though they claim Monson is a prophet. .

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Novato

Hey Libs,

I'm back for a little while, going OS again on Sunday. I love your posts however, I do understand why Jill might want to redirect this discussion to another forum.

Having said that however, I personally do consider that this particular subject is relevant to the Church. Joseph Smith stated many times that there were other Scriptures given to others by the Lord.

Look after yourself and keep on the journey.

Much love,

Novato

Hi Novato. Glad you got some time off and thank you for the kind words. I know that the two are related (missing scripture and Mormonism), and this video, in part, highlights that. I believe we are all connected at the spiritual level...so, if one opens their eyes, they will see "connections" everywhere.

You take care. God's blessings.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

Hi Novato. Glad you got some time off and thank you for the kind words. I know that the two are related (missing scripture and Mormonism), and this video, in part, highlights that. I believe we are all connected at the spiritual level...so, if one opens their eyes, they will see "connections" everywhere.

You take care. God's blessings.

We are not all connected on the spiritual level. Jesus said:

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies." John 8:44

Those who receive Jesus Christ (of the Bible) by faith are adopted by God into His family, and it is then they become the children of God:

John 1: 9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Some are children of God by faith; and others are not.

[Libby]

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father.

This describes identification with the ego. If we act only from our ego (earthly body & personality) then, our "father" could be described as the devil, as we will be acting from a very selfish, spiteful, often hateful place, desiring only to gratify our own selfish, egoic desires.

John 1: 9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

Exactly. When we identify with our higher self (the light that gives light to everyone) we will act in accordance with our higher spiritual nature and that light (Christ) will shine through us.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

This describes identification with the ego. If we act only from our ego (earthly body & personality) then, our "father" could be described as the devil, as we will be acting from a very selfish, spiteful, often hateful place, desiring only to gratify our own selfish, egoic desires.

Actually, I've studied psychology. I was a caseworker after all. The ego you describe above may fly in Hindu circles, but Freud would laugh at what you're saying. Take the words of Jesus literally, and believe them.

Exactly. When we identify with our higher self (the light that gives light to everyone) we will act in accordance with our higher spiritual nature and that light (Christ) will shine through us.

Sorry, but this mishmash of Hinduism you are spouting here, coupled with pop psychology, will save nobody. You are a sinner, with a sinful nature. You have no "higher self." You cannot save yourself, for the wages of sin is death. Either you will pay that wage, or Jesus will pay it for you. Your "higher self," is a lost sinner in need of a Savior, not a guru.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Sorry, but this mishmash of Hinduism you are spouting here, coupled with pop psychology, will save nobody. You are a sinner, with a sinful nature. You have no "higher self." You cannot save yourself, for the wages of sin is death. Either you will pay that wage, or Jesus will pay it for you. Your "higher self," is a lost sinner in need of a Savior, not a guru.

I didn't say I could save myself...and, yes, we are all in ignorance (sin), to one degree or another.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I didn't say I could save myself...and, yes, we are all in ignorance (sin), to one degree or another.

Where do unbelievers go in your world view?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

I didn't say I could save myself...and, yes, we are all in ignorance (sin), to one degree or another.

No, we are no all in ignorance. You have willfully rejected the Gospel, that is not ignorance it is grave sin. You've chosen who you will follow - you trust in another gospel. I pray that you turn and repent.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Apologette

No, we are no all in ignorance. You have willfully rejected the Gospel, that is not ignorance it is grave sin. You've chosen who you will follow - you trust in another gospel. I pray that you turn and repent.

I haven't rejected the Gospel, at all. I may have rejected some "opinions" about the Gospel, but not the true Gospel.

So, you and Billy are going to heaven and I and all of the Mormons are going to hell...right?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Where do unbelievers go in your world view?

I believe in reincarnation. LDS believe in a type of eternal progression...so, do I, except I believe we come back again and again, either on this earth or other worlds, until we finally become God-Realized.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

I believe in reincarnation. LDS believe in a type of eternal progression...so, do I, except I believe we come back again and again, either on this earth or other worlds, until we finally become God-Realized.

Okay, so Libby says she believes in reincarnation, but above says she hasn't rejected the Gospel. This shows how confusing it gets for someone who tries to live with one foot in Hinduism and another in Christianity (maybe just a toe in Christianity, I guess).

Reincarnation teaches the principle of karma, or basically that we work off our karmic debt caused by wrong actions either in this life (by austerities, meditation, mantra chanting, etc.) or in the next life. Let's say you are a thief in this life - in the next you may have your fortune stolen. That works off your karmic debt.

Anybody can see that the belief in reincarnation has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity which teaches that we are sinners bound for hell and eternal death. Only a Savior can pay the price for our sins, make us "just as if we never sinned," which is justification before God.

Reincarnation and Chrsitian Atonement are an***hetical and anybody who tells you otherwise is simply lying to you.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Was looking through articles on "evidence for Jesus" and came across a statement from a couple of Christians, stating there faith did not rest upon physical evidence. I was happy to see a Christian admit that, because I know, deep down that most EV Christians really do feel that way, but, for some reason, on these boards, they do not allow that for other faiths, like Mormonism. There is all of this talk about physical evidence,

What type of physical proof would a Christian seek?
As far as I know there were no witnesses for the moment Resurrection inside the tomb.

[alanmolstad]

Faith in the Bible is not at all equal to putting your faith in Joe Smith and the Book of Mormon....
The bible does not represent one guy's ideas and story about how it camre to be.
The Bible does not rest on the story one guy told about it.

The Bible has a rich history of being confirmed over and over....

With the BOM, all we got is Joe....

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Faith in the Bible is not at all equal to putting your faith in Joe Smith and the Book of Mormon....
The bible does not represent one guy's ideas and story about how it camre to be.
The Bible does not rest on the story one guy told about it.

The Bible has a rich history of being confirmed over and over....

With the BOM, all we got is Joe....

Libby is seriously backsliden. She thinks our faith is based on evidence, when the evidence is supplied by God to give us a tangible reason to hold it tighter.. We could believe in the three bears and Goldy Locks but the evidence show us that bear don't talk.. We could believe that the world is flat but Magellan gave us evidence that that is false. Real Faith is supported by evidence it isn't contrary to it.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I believe in reincarnation. LDS believe in a type of eternal progression...so, do I, except I believe we come back again and again, either on this earth or other worlds, until we finally become God-Realized.

Libby I ***ume that you have changed this viewpoint?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

What type of physical proof would a Christian seek?
As far as I know there were no witnesses for the moment Resurrection inside the tomb.

My whole point was that physical evidence is unnecessary. The Holy Spirit stands as witness to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and his Word. But, Christians often use Bible archaeology as a means of establishing its' reliability...rather than pointing to the witness of the Holy Spirit.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Libby I ***ume that you have changed this viewpoint?

Yes.

With God's help, I am trying to come back in line with biblical Christianity.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

My whole point was that physical evidence is unnecessary. The Holy Spirit stands as witness to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and his Word. But, Christians often use Bible archaeology as a means of establishing its' reliability...rather than pointing to the witness of the Holy Spirit.

well.....the truth is that Jesus did not live that long ago, so I believe that it is an interesting and worthwhile thing to do in looking for proof that he lived.

So while I do not allow things like the current findings of science to take on a religious meaning as they seem to only last until the next findings are found, I still enjoy knowing that from time to science we see new and better support for the Bible all the time.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

well.....the truth is that Jesus did not live that long ago, so I believe that it is an interesting and worthwhile thing to do in looking for proof that he lived.

So while I do not allow things like the current findings of science to take on a religious meaning as they seem to only last until the next findings are found, I still enjoy knowing that from time to science we see new and better support for the Bible all the time.

Of course, but that's not what I was talking about. I'm talking about people who, out of one side of their mouth, criticize faith that has no physical evidence...but on the other side, claim their faith is more justified because of physical evidences.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Libby

Of course, but that's not what I was talking about. I'm talking about people who, out of one side of their mouth, criticize faith that has no physical evidence...but on the other side, claim their faith is more justified because of physical evidences.

I think that's called "inconsistency."

[Libby]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I think that's called "inconsistency."

That's one of the words you could use, yes.