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Thread: God as Spirit or flesh and bone

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    Default God as Spirit or flesh and bone

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jdjhere
    RussianWolfe said: "Provide the scriptural support for your belief that God could be in multiple places at the same time."

    We will do this after we discuss whether or not God is a Spirit, as Jesus said He was. John 4:24 "God is spirit,” He (Jesus) declared, “and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.”

    dberrie---So--does God possess a physical body or is He just a Spirit only?
    I thought this might be a good question for the forum to discuss. Any comments?
    Last edited by dberrie2000; 06-11-2012 at 07:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Quote:
    dberrie---So--does God possess a physical body or is He just a Spirit only?

    God the Father does not have a body of flesh and bones, Jesus has a resurrected body.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    God the Father does not have a body of flesh and bones, Jesus has a resurrected body.
    I wonder why you don't answer "God the Father does not have a body of flesh and bones, God the Son has a resurrected body."

    Could it be because it complicates your explanation?

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    Default Is the mormon god a chicken or a man?

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Quote:
    I thought thhis might be a good question for the forum to discuss. Any comments?
    Psa 91:4. He shall cover thee with his Feathers, and under his Wings shalt thou trust his truth.

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    SnowPatrol said: "I wonder why you don't answer "God the Father does not have a body of flesh and bones, God the Son has a resurrected body."
    Could it be because it complicates your explanation?

    It doesnt complicate anything at all, SnowPatrol. OK...

    "God the Father does not have a body of flesh and bones, God the Son has a resurrected body..."
    but tell the REST of the Truth...
    "God the Father does not have a body of flesh and bones, God the Son has a resurrected Glorified Spiritual body that houses God the Son Who is Spirit."

    God the Father and God the Son in the beginning were and are God (John 1:1) and the Logos became flesh. God (Spirit) the Son is inhabiting a Glorified, Resurrected Spiritual Body right now and is still fully God, still OUTSIDE of this body because God IS Omipresent and you cannot hide from Him because God is Spirit.
    Last edited by jdjhere; 06-05-2012 at 09:41 AM.
    Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying "For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" Compare Isaiah 42:8 to John 17:5. Compare Isaiah 6:1-5 to John 12:41. Read John 1:1-3;14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    God the Father does not have a body of flesh and bones, Jesus has a resurrected body.
    Is not Jesus God also? How can God have a body of flesh and bones--and be a Spirit only--without a body of flesh and bones?

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    “You are the God who sees me” (Genesis 16:13)

    How does God see Hagar if He is a man and is not omnipresent?
    Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying "For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" Compare Isaiah 42:8 to John 17:5. Compare Isaiah 6:1-5 to John 12:41. Read John 1:1-3;14

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    Default Around and around we go, where we stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Is not Jesus God also? How can God have a body of flesh and bones--and be a Spirit only--without a body of flesh and bones?
    The Godhead is three persons in one Godhead, thus The Father Spirit, The Son Body and the Holy Ghost is the Godhead Repersentative here on earth.
    If you don't buy it, okay move on, is my best advice.

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    DBerrie said: "Is not Jesus God also?
    Yes
    DBerrie said: "How can God have a body of flesh and bones.."
    because the Word (Jesus, Logos, monogenes Son of God) BECAME flesh...
    DBerrie said: "and be a Spirit only without a body of flesh and bones?"
    In the Beginning was the Word (Jesus, Logos) and the Word (Jesus, Logos) was with God and the Word (Jesus, Logos) WAS God (God is SPIRIT)... and the Word (Jesus, Logos, God the Son, SPIRIT) BECAME (took on, wrapped Himself in) flesh" (because He WAS Spirit in the beginning, God the Son, and is STILL a Spirit that "took on flesh".

    Is this really that hard to understand, DBerrie2000?
    Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying "For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" Compare Isaiah 42:8 to John 17:5. Compare Isaiah 6:1-5 to John 12:41. Read John 1:1-3;14

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdjhere View Post
    “You are the God who sees me” (Genesis 16:13)

    How does God see Hagar if He is a man and is not omnipresent?
    Well, I could get technical and ask how God, even being omnipresent, can see Hagar if God does not have eyeballs, cornea, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdjhere View Post
    DBerrie said: "Is not Jesus God also?
    Yes
    DBerrie said: "How can God have a body of flesh and bones.."
    because the Word (Jesus, Logos, monogenes Son of God) BECAME flesh...
    DBerrie said: "and be a Spirit only without a body of flesh and bones?"
    In the Beginning was the Word (Jesus, Logos) and the Word (Jesus, Logos) was with God and the Word (Jesus, Logos) WAS God... and the Word (Jesus, Logos) BECAME (took on, wrapped Himself in) flesh" because He WAS Spirit in the beginning, God the Son.

    Is this really that hard to understand, DBerrie2000?

    How does this address the fact that the Trinitarians have God with both a body of flesh and bone--and only a Spirit? Referring to the fact that God the Son was Spirit before He obtained a resurrected body of flesh and bone--will not solve the problem--for the faith alone still has the Father as Spirit only.

    The Trinitarians believe in the "homoousios"(same substance) God.

    How can God have different substances, I.E.--God the Son having a resurrected body of flesh and bone--and God the Father a Spirit only?

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    SnowPatrol said: "Well, I could get technical and ask how God, even being omnipresent, can see Hagar if God does not have eyeballs, cornea, etc.

    I could get technical too and say "What does God do as a man to see Hagar...take his eyeballs out and throw them to earth?"

    Because God is omniscient and omnipresent because He is Spirit. It is just who God is.
    Last edited by jdjhere; 06-05-2012 at 10:14 AM.
    Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying "For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" Compare Isaiah 42:8 to John 17:5. Compare Isaiah 6:1-5 to John 12:41. Read John 1:1-3;14

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    DBerrie said: "How can God have different substances, I.E.--God the Son having a resurrected body of flesh and bone--and God the Father a Spirit only?"

    but you leave out that God the Son is SPIRIT as well, simultaneously IN His Resurrected Glorified Spiritual Physical Body and OUT of it as well because He is God the Son, Omnipresent and Omniscient. Acts 1:11 "Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven..." BODILY housing God the Son who is Spirit.
    Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying "For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" Compare Isaiah 42:8 to John 17:5. Compare Isaiah 6:1-5 to John 12:41. Read John 1:1-3;14

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    dberrie---How does this address the fact that the Trinitarians have God with both a body of flesh and bone--and only a Spirit? Referring to the fact that God the Son was Spirit before He obtained a resurrected body of flesh and bone--will not solve the problem--for the faith alone still has the Father as Spirit only.

    The Trinitarians believe in the "homoousios"(same substance) God.

    How can God have different substances, I.E.--God the Son having a resurrected body of flesh and bone--and God the Father a Spirit only?


    Quote Originally Posted by jdjhere View Post
    DBerrie said: "How can God have different substances, I.E.--God the Son having a resurrected body of flesh and bone--and God the Father a Spirit only?"

    but you leave out that God the Son is SPIRIT as well, simultaneously IN His Resurrected Glorified Spiritual Physical Body and OUT of it as well because He is God the Son, Omnipresent and Omniscient. Acts 1:11 "Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. BODILY

    Well--if God the Son possesses a body through the eternities, and God the Father does not--you still have God with different substances.

    Explaining that God the Son has a Spirit also does not solve it--as He also has a body of flesh and bones--which the Trinitarian faith alone deny the Father has.

    That involves two different substances--One, Flesh and Bone--the other--Spirit only. Adding a Spirit to Jesus does not solve the problem.

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    dberrie asked: "How does this address the fact that the Trinitarians have God with both a body of flesh and bone--and only a Spirit?"
    This is incorrect. God the Son "clothed Himself, wrapped Himself, took on" flesh, NOT the Father or Holy Spirit. This was ONLY the Son. God is SPIRIT- Father, Son, Holy Spirit.. 3 distinct personalities that are Spirit and are One, communicate with each other and function as the One True and Living God. Mix 3 soups together- they are now one soup. Spirits without bodies could certainly exist together and be one Entity, even if we can not understand it. H2O exists as fluid, ice and steam.

    When Jesus said (John 4:24) " God is Spirit " He was talking about God in context of the Old Testament and how believers knew Him, as an omnipotent omniscient omnipresent Being because He was Spirit. Then Jesus (God the Son) came in the flesh and said "Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father. You have now seen Him and KNOW HIM." (John 14:7) Why? Because (Col 2:9) "For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily".
    Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying "For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" Compare Isaiah 42:8 to John 17:5. Compare Isaiah 6:1-5 to John 12:41. Read John 1:1-3;14

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    dberrie---Well--if God the Son possesses a body through the eternities, and God the Father does not--you still have God with different substances.

    Explaining that God the Son has a Spirit also does not solve it--as He also has a body of flesh and bones--which the Trinitarian faith alone deny the Father has.

    That involves two different substances--One, Flesh and Bone--the other--Spirit only. Adding a Spirit to Jesus does not solve the problem.

    JD---- This is incorrect. God the Son "clothed Himself, wrapped Himself, took on" flesh, NOT the Father or Holy Spirit. This was ONLY the Son. God is SPIRIT- Father, Son, Holy Spirit..
    But we are now back where we began. If only Jesus took on the flesh--and still possesses it--and not the Father--then They have two different substances.

    How do you collate that to the "homoousious"(same substance) God?


    3 distinct personalities that are Spirit and are One,
    And one with a Spirit and one with flesh and bone. JD--you are differentiating personalities.

    The question is--does God possess a physical body. You believe they are the same God--so--if one God possesses a physical body--then the other does also. You can only differentiate that at the person level--I am asking the question at the level of the one God, as the faith alone believe.


    communicate with each other and function as the One True and Living God.

    The "only true God" or the only "one God" the Biblical text ever identifies is God the Father--even when Jesus Christ is added in the same sentence:

    St John17:3--"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."


    1 Cor8:6--"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

    Where do you see any reference to anyone but God the Father in the NT as the "one God" or the "only true God"?


    Mix 3 soups together- they are now one soup. Spirits without bodies could certainly exist together and be one Entity, even if we can not understand it. H2O exists as fluid, ice and steam.

    But not at the same time. How could God the Father appear to Jesus Christ in the Mount of Transfiguration, and announce His Only Begotten Son?

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    DBerrie2000 asked: "How do you collate that to the "homoousious"(same substance) God?"

    God is Spirit. This Spirit is the same substance (homoousious) made up of 3 distinct personalities or persons... the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Christ Body was "added" because He took on flesh to save us, but the substance that is the same (homoousious) is God Himself (Spirit)- that is the Father (Spirit), Son (Spirit) and Holy (Spirit) are the same substance, all fully God, co-eternal Spirit. The Spirit of God that dwells in God the Son is the same substance as God the Father (Spirit) and God the Holy (Spirit). But the Son "took on" or "became" flesh but God the Son (Spirit) that is housed in a Spiritual Body is still the same substance as God the Father (Spirit) and the Holy (Spirit)- that being Eternal Spirit that existed as God with no beginning and no end.
    One of the names of God in the Old Testament is Jehovah-Elohim. It is translated in our King James Bible as "The LORD God" and literally means "Jehovah is Elohim," or "The LORD is God."
    Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD [Jehovah] your God [Elohim] is one LORD [Jehovah]."
    Last edited by jdjhere; 06-05-2012 at 06:13 PM.
    Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying "For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" Compare Isaiah 42:8 to John 17:5. Compare Isaiah 6:1-5 to John 12:41. Read John 1:1-3;14

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    DBerrie2000 said: "even when Jesus Christ is added in the same sentence:"

    St John17:3--"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

    The question is WHY is Jesus Christ even added to the same sentence? Because eternal life is dependent on what? By knowing the only true God and... who else? Why parallel the two?
    1 John 5:20 "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
    Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying "For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" Compare Isaiah 42:8 to John 17:5. Compare Isaiah 6:1-5 to John 12:41. Read John 1:1-3;14

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    JD----God is Spirit. This Spirit is the same substance made up of 3 distinct personalities or persons... the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
    Sorry, JD, but that dog just ain't gonna hunt. One cannot state that there are different persons as God, and assign them two different substances--one a physical body,(God the Son) and the other without a physical body(God the Father) and then state it is the same substance.

    Unless you want to establish the fact, that as God, where they all combine--- there is only one--that they are of the same substance. In that case--is it a Spirit and a physical Body--or just a Spirit?


    Christ Body was "added" because He took on flesh to save us, but the substance that is the same (homoousious) is God Himself (Spirit)- that is the Father (Spirit), Son (Spirit) and Holy (Spirit) are the same substance, all fully God, co-eternal Spirit.
    Christ not only "added" a body--He still has it. That means that Christ has a physical body and a Spirit--and God the Father has a Spirit only.

    Does God have a physical body?

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    JD---St John17:3--"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

    The question is WHY is Jesus Christ even added to the same sentence? Because eternal life is dependent on what? By knowing the only true God and... who else?
    Who else? The only other One the scripture identifies--Jesus Christ.

    Your attempt to merge the two runs into immediate problems:


    St John20:17--"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

    Who was Jesus' God? Who does the scriptures identify as the One who gave Jesus Christ His inheritance of all things:

    Hebrews1:2--"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    St John20:17--"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

    Who was Jesus' God? Who does the scriptures identify as the One who gave Jesus Christ His inheritance of all things:
    Why do you see this as an issue given the fact that you know that Jesus voluntary lowered himself to be like one of us?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Hebrews1:2--"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"
    when do you think Jesus went from owing nothing to having all things?

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    dberrie---Who else? The only other One the scripture identifies--Jesus Christ.

    Your attempt to merge the two runs into immediate problems:


    St John20:17--"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

    Who was Jesus' God? Who does the scriptures identify as the One who gave Jesus Christ His inheritance of all things:

    Hebrews1:2--"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"


    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Why do you see this as an issue given the fact that you know that Jesus voluntary lowered himself to be like one of us?

    Because that explanation does not even touch upon the problem of Jesus having a God over Himself--nor inheriting all things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Because that explanation does not even touch upon the problem of Jesus having a God over Himself--nor inheriting all things.
    When Jesus voluntarily lowered himself to become like one of us wouldn't that include Jesus following God the Father like we are asked to do?

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    DBerrie2000 said: "How could God the Father appear to Jesus Christ in the Mount of Transfiguration, and announce His Only Begotten Son?"

    Define "appear" because it was NOT bodily.

    Jesus was transformed before His disciples. It would have been of great interest to have heard the words our Lord was speaking to the Father as His appearance began to be changed. Jesus is then called Son by a voice in the sky from God the Father, as in the baptism of Jesus.

    Matthew 17:5-8 While he was yet speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold, a voice out of the cloud, saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him." And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them and said, "Arise, and be not afraid." And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one, save Jesus only.
    Luke 9:34-36 While he thus spoke, there came a cloud and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered into the cloud. And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, “THIS IS MY BELOVED SON. HEAR HIM!”And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.
    Mark9:7-8 And there came a cloud overshadowing them: and there came a voice out of the cloud, "This is my beloved Son: hear ye him."And suddenly looking round about, they saw no one any more save Jesus only with themselves.
    2 Peter 1:16-18 "For we did not follow cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there was borne such a voice to him by the Majestic Glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: and this voice we [ourselves] heard borne out of heaven, when we were with him in the holy mount.

    Show me Biblical Scripture that proves the Father "appeared" bodily to Jesus Christ in the Mount of Transfiguration. There was a cloud and a Voice and.... Jesus alone. I wonder why? Maybe because the God the Father is Spirit and God the Son was housed in a body?
    Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying "For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" Compare Isaiah 42:8 to John 17:5. Compare Isaiah 6:1-5 to John 12:41. Read John 1:1-3;14

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