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Thread: God as Spirit or flesh and bone

  1. #251
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    Please tell us what the Bible says spirit is....
    As far as I know the Bible does not try to compare the Spirit to anything made.
    The Spirit is not like anything we see around us in creation.

    But we do have a few terms that the Bible does ***ociate wih the term "Spirit"

    The Bible tells us that "God is spirit", but then it also says that when we worship God we must do so in "spirit and in Truth"

    So from this we see that there is a strong connection between the Bible's use of the term "spirit" and the word "truth"

    To this I would add that not only does the Bible tell us that "God is spirit" but it also tells us that "God is Love", and then goes on to describe what love is > "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud."

    So that is how we see the Bible describing God.

  2. #252
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by glm1978 View Post

    [B]Please show us where the bible says God has a body. Give us the chapter and verse:
    WELL.... the Bible does talk about the Lord's wings.......

  3. #253
    Russianwolfe
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    Quote Originally Posted by glm1978 View Post
    What don't you understand about 'spirit has not flesh and bones?' Just because YOU can't understand what it means, does not make it a false teaching. A spirit is intangible.
    I understand what Christ told the apostles after his resurrection quite clearly. But I also know that spirit is not a dog nor a cat. But how does that help us understand what spirit really is? Do you know of a Bilblical definition of what spirit is? Please share.

    Quote Originally Posted by glm1978 View Post
    Please show us where the bible says God has a body. Give us the chapter and verse(s) Can you tell us why we can't see God? If God has a body, then why must he be worshiped only in spirit?

    Please discuss Mormonism. I'll be waiting...
    Lets see. Christ has a body. He is God. How many Gods do you believe in? Only one, I expect. So that means that God is not just spirit but has a body. Or don't you believe in the resurrection? If you don't, how can you claim to be a Christian if you don't believe in the resurrection?

    Do I really need to quote scripture to prove that Christ has a body? You didn't quote scripture when you referred to Christ's statement that he had flesh and bones but I knew what you were referring to. So do I need to quote scripture to show that Christ has a body?

    You can't see me but I know I exist. Do you doubt that?

    Marvin

  4. #254
    Russianwolfe
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    As far as I know the Bible does not try to compare the Spirit to anything made.
    Logical fallacy: Argument from Silence. Point is null and void.

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    The Spirit is not like anything we see around us in creation.
    Another logical fallacy: You are arguing from a false premise, which would be the first statement. You continue to argue falsely.


    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post

    But we do have a few terms that the Bible does ***ociate with the term "Spirit"

    The Bible tells us that "God is spirit", but then it also says that when we worship God we must do so in "spirit and in Truth"
    Using the word in the definition is not a valid definition. You cannot define salt as tasting salty.

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post


    So from this we see that there is a strong connection between the Bible's use of the term "spirit" and the word "truth"
    Irrelevant. That does not give us a definition of spirit.

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post


    To this I would add that not only does the Bible tell us that "God is spirit" but it also tells us that "God is Love", and then goes on to describe what love is > "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud."

    So that is how we see the Bible describing God.
    But nothing of what you have said helps us to understand what spirit is. You have deflected and attempted to becloud the issue but have not shown us any Biblical definition of what spirit is. We are as ******** now and we were before I asked the question.

    Marvin

  5. #255
    alanmolstad
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    Everything I always say can be supported by the Bible...thus Im limited to the text alone for my answers...

    If you find me saying something that is not found in the Bible let me know....

  6. #256
    Russianwolfe
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Everything I always say can be supported by the Bible...thus Im limited to the text alone for my answers...

    If you find me saying something that is not found in the Bible let me know....
    Does this mean that you will never know what spirit is from the Bible?

    Marvin

    PS Seems that if God is spirit as you claim, and the Bible doesn't tell you what spirit is, then does that mean that you don't really know what God is?

  7. #257
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    Does this mean that you will never know what spirit is from the Bible?
    It means that I can invent all kinds of things on my own.
    I can pull tons of ideas out of a hat and claim that each is "truth"

    But only the ideas of mine that are in agreement with the Bible are actually true....

    Therefore if Im asked a question or challenged on a teaching, my answer has to be centered around the simple text of the Bible.


    This is the example we see when Jesus was challenged in the wilderness and always answered with scripture.



    So what the Bible tells us is the truth...even if it is not worded in a way that we would have liked.
    For example, we dont really know anything about how Jesus looked.
    He is my Lord and my God, yet the bible does not tell us anything about his looks.....

    So while I worship the Lord truly, I cant be asked to discribe him from the text alone, because I only have the text to use in my answer, and the text in many, many places does not seem all that interested in the silly questions men have asked over the last 2000 years

    God is Spirit, and when i die my body is put into the ground and my spirit goes to the Lord who gave it.....
    But dont ask me the question "What does your spirit look like?" because i cant answer that from the Text....
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 11-17-2012 at 02:03 PM.

  8. #258
    alanmolstad
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    so to review...

    god is spirit, always was, always will be.
    But for our salvation, the Son was wrapped in flesh and born as a man.

    Understand the Son was, is now, and will always be God.

    and Understand that the son was, is now and will always be spirit.

    But for our salvation he was made man and wrapped in the flesh of mortal man so he could die.

    Jesus was borm of mary is a human body of flesh and blood.
    He died, and was truly as dead as all human get who die.
    And Jesus was raised to life in an everlasting body of flesh and bone.

    This is the first example of what will one day happen to all who believe.
    We will die in these tents of flesh and blood, and be raised to new life in everlasting bodies of flesh and bone....

  9. #259
    TheSword99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    I understand what Christ told the apostles after his resurrection quite clearly. But I also know that spirit is not a dog nor a cat. But how does that help us understand what spirit really is? Do you know of a Bilblical definition of what spirit is? Please share.



    Lets see. Christ has a body. He is God. How many Gods do you believe in? Only one, I expect. So that means that God is not just spirit but has a body. Or don't you believe in the resurrection? If you don't, how can you claim to be a Christian if you don't believe in the resurrection?

    Do I really need to quote scripture to prove that Christ has a body? You didn't quote scripture when you referred to Christ's statement that he had flesh and bones but I knew what you were referring to. So do I need to quote scripture to show that Christ has a body?

    You can't see me but I know I exist. Do you doubt that?

    Marvin
    Spirit is a supernatural, incorporeal being without a body.(without material existence) Christ was always with God as John 1 testifies of, and was God. When Christ came to earth as a man in order to die for our sins he had to have a body, or else he could not die. How many times does Jesus have to say: "I and the Father are one"? "Before Abraham was, I AM" "I AM the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end." God told Moses: "I AM the I AM."

    I see that Christ now having a body is a stumbling block for the lds. It does not mean that Jesus is now an exalted man. He is still GOD. This is why angels worship him which would be blasphemy if He was not God. This is why your knee and mine will bow and confess Christ as LORD. Do not limit God. God said He is NOT a man. Never was. The bible tells us: "In the beginning God." NOT: "In the beginning man."

  10. #260
    glm1978
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    I understand what Christ told the apostles after his resurrection quite clearly. But I also know that spirit is not a dog nor a cat. But how does that help us understand what spirit really is? Do you know of a Bilblical definition of what spirit is? Please share.



    Lets see. Christ has a body. He is God. How many Gods do you believe in? Only one, I expect. So that means that God is not just spirit but has a body. Or don't you believe in the resurrection? If you don't, how can you claim to be a Christian if you don't believe in the resurrection?

    Do I really need to quote scripture to prove that Christ has a body? You didn't quote scripture when you referred to Christ's statement that he had flesh and bones but I knew what you were referring to. So do I need to quote scripture to show that Christ has a body?

    You can't see me but I know I exist. Do you doubt that?

    Marvin

    The LDS believes that God has a body of flesh and bone in order to substantiate Joseph Smith's so-called first vision. John 4:24 claims God is a spirit (lit. God is Spirit). Even Smith at one time taught God the Father was a personage of spirit (Lectures on Faith, Lecture Fifth).

  11. #261
    Russianwolfe
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    And so you have answered many questions that I nevered asked. Can we please stick to the questions that I have asked?

    Marvin

    PS. The question is, what is the Biblical defintion of what spirit is!


    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    It means that I can invent all kinds of things on my own.
    I can pull tons of ideas out of a hat and claim that each is "truth"

    But only the ideas of mine that are in agreement with the Bible are actually true....

    Therefore if Im asked a question or challenged on a teaching, my answer has to be centered around the simple text of the Bible.


    This is the example we see when Jesus was challenged in the wilderness and always answered with scripture.



    So what the Bible tells us is the truth...even if it is not worded in a way that we would have liked.
    For example, we dont really know anything about how Jesus looked.
    He is my Lord and my God, yet the bible does not tell us anything about his looks.....

    So while I worship the Lord truly, I cant be asked to discribe him from the text alone, because I only have the text to use in my answer, and the text in many, many places does not seem all that interested in the silly questions men have asked over the last 2000 years

    God is Spirit, and when i die my body is put into the ground and my spirit goes to the Lord who gave it.....
    But dont ask me the question "What does your spirit look like?" because i cant answer that from the Text....

  12. #262
    Russianwolfe
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    Spirit is a supernatural, incorporeal being without a body.(without material existence)
    How do you know this is true? Do you have Biblical support for these statements? If not, how do you know that these statements are true?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    Christ was always with God as John 1 testifies of, and was God.
    It also says that he was with God. So who is this God that Christ is with?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    When Christ came to earth as a man in order to die for our sins he had to have a body, or else he could not die.
    Agreed. But there is one other things. His Father had to be God the True God or else his death on the cross would not have been voluntary.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    How many times does Jesus have to say: "I and the Father are one"?
    But he does not say that he and the Father are the same essence. (This bit of nonsense was created by Greek philosophers posing as Christians.) Only that they are one. God also says that a man and a woman will become one flesh? Does that mean that they become one essence? How is this any different than what Christ said?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    "Before Abraham was, I AM" "I AM the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end." God told Moses: "I AM the I AM."
    I have always taught that from the Fall onward, the only God that man had any dealings with was Christ. These verses, even though you gave no reference so we could check them, imply the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    I see that Christ now having a body is a stumbling block for the lds.
    Absolutely not. It is you who claim to worship only one God but your God exists in two different states at the same time, both with a body and as spirit only. The stumbling block is yours, my path is clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    It does not mean that Jesus is now an exalted man.
    Why then are we told over and over by the likes of you, that Christ was 100% man and 100% God? If Christ was man at one point, then it is obvious that he is now an exalted man, exalted by God the Father.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    He is still GOD.
    Never said otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    This is why angels worship him which would be blasphemy if He was not God.
    Or when John, in Revelation, tries to worship an angel as Christ and is forbidden?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    This is why your knee and mine will bow and confess Christ as LORD. Do not limit God. God said He is NOT a man.
    Again no supporting scripture. But if you will examine the scripture that you are referencing, you will find that it is talking the character of God and not whether God has a body or not. You are misusing this scripture. In other words, wresting the scripture.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    Never was.
    Doesn't say that. You are arguing from silence now and that makes your argument null and void.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    The bible tells us: "In the beginning God." NOT: "In the beginning man."
    Of course it doesn't. God had to be God to create the earth. But if you really want to examine the scripture, it really says, "In the beginning, the Gods". Elohim is plural and that is the word that is usually translated as God.

    Marvin

  13. #263
    Russianwolfe
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    Quote Originally Posted by glm1978 View Post
    The LDS believes that God has a body of flesh and bone in order to substantiate Joseph Smith's so-called first vision. John 4:24 claims God is a spirit (lit. God is Spirit). Even Smith at one time taught God the Father was a personage of spirit (Lectures on Faith, Lecture Fifth).
    And you don't understand your cut/paste of this claim. If you read the whole lecture you would be making this false statements.

    And no we don't believe this becuase of the first vision. We believe it because God has revealed it. And the Bible clearly teaches it.

    The Bible states that Christ has a body of flesh and bone. Christ is God isn't he? Or do you believe otherwise? Therefore, since Christ is God, even you have to believe that God has a body.

    Marvin

  14. #264
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post

    PS. The question is, what is the Biblical definition of what spirit is!
    "wind, or breath" would be the simple translation of the bible's term.

    from there you have to study the wider context of how the term appears in a sentence, and how it is to be understood in that given context....(as with any word you are studying)


    For example, the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity....equal in nature to person of the Father or the Son....

    Back in my time in Bible school, I learned that one of the ways to understand the Holy Spirit is to think if "God's breathing....God's outgoing Word...

    Now in some Christians schools they hold that man is made up of 3 parts..."Body, Soul, and Spirit"
    I have looked at this idea and come to the point where I just believe that men are basicly 2 things....we are flesh and we are Soul/Spirits...

    The flesh is part of the earth, and this we share with all other things from the earth like rocks and birds and fish and trees.

    The Spirit/or Soul of man is that part of us that is given by God and has nothing to do with how things are evolved and arrived at in creation.

    Now, we have to always also keep in mind that men have learned a lot more about how the human body works than we did 1000s of years ago.
    We no longer believe that just because you might sneeze that you may have lost your Spirit "God Bless You!"

    So while early man looked at the big difference between a dead person and a living person, "(breathing") and came up with the idea that in some way 'air' was the 'life" , and this led to all kinds of religious teachings.....We need to just make sure we understand that such terms in the Bible like "wind" and "breath" are mostly symbolic in many contexts....this is how I look at the statement by the mom of Jesus when she talked about both her 'soul" and her 'spirit"

  15. #265
    Russianwolfe
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    "wind, or breath" would be the simple translation of the bible's term.
    Those would be similes not definitions.

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post

    from there you have to study the wider context of how the term appears in a sentence, and how it is to be understood in that given context....(as with any word you are studying)
    Again, I am looking for you to provide a Biblical defintion, not guess work based on how a word is used. All that will tell is how the word is used, it will not tell you what spirit is.

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post


    For example, the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity....equal in nature to person of the Father or the Son....

    Back in my time in Bible school, I learned that one of the ways to understand the Holy Spirit is to think if "God's breathing....God's outgoing Word...
    Again, similes not definitions.

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post

    Now in some Christians schools they hold that man is made up of 3 parts..."Body, Soul, and Spirit"
    I have looked at this idea and come to the point where I just believe that men are basicly 2 things....we are flesh and we are Soul/Spirits...
    Again, Biblical definitions not guesses or speculations.

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post

    The flesh is part of the earth, and this we share with all other things from the earth like rocks and birds and fish and trees.

    The Spirit/or Soul of man is that part of us that is given by God and has nothing to do with how things are evolved and arrived at in creation.

    Now, we have to always also keep in mind that men have learned a lot more about how the human body works than we did 1000s of years ago.
    We no longer believe that just because you might sneeze that you may have lost your Spirit "God Bless You!"

    So while early man looked at the big difference between a dead person and a living person, "(breathing") and came up with the idea that in some way 'air' was the 'life" , and this led to all kinds of religious teachings.....We need to just make sure we understand that such terms in the Bible like "wind" and "breath" are mostly symbolic in many contexts....this is how I look at the statement by the mom of Jesus when she talked about both her 'soul" and her 'spirit"
    Sorry, but you haven't given us a Biblical defintion of any kind. All I see are similes based on guesswork. Is that considered Biblical?

    How about giving us the Biblical definition?

    Marvin

  16. #266
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    Those would be similes not definitions.



    ....
    as far as I remember , this is the definition of the term "Spirit" i.e., "pneuma"

    I remember that from Bible school!...LOL

    It is the base word for our word pneumatic.

  17. #267
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    How about giving us the Biblical definition?
    That is, the word is the same basic word for what we translate as "breath" or for "wind"...and perhaps "air"...

    This is why Jesus at John 3:8 compares the spirit to the wind.

    "The wind ****s wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."


    The connection between the 'wind" and the 'spirit" that Jesus taught is clearly indicated in the Text.

    Thus this is not only the Bible's definition, it is our Lord's as well.....

    The spirit of the Lord (Holy Spirit) is God's breath, his words spoken, the divine wind (kamikaze)

  18. #268
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    God is ALWAYs spirit.....always......always and always...

    and for our salvation God wrapped himself in flesh and blood and was made man so that he might die for our sin.

    God was, is and will always be spirit!

    But God became flesh and blood so he could die.

    Right now Jesus was raised in a human body of flesh and bone and will have this same body forever.
    Well--that brings a question. When you state "God" here--are you referring to God the Son--or God the Father?

    You have God the Son as flesh and bone. Is God the Father the same substance?

    If not--could you explain the "****ousios" (same substance) God of the Trinitarian creeds?

  19. #269
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    You have God the Son as flesh and bone. Is God the Father the same substance?
    The son of God is just as much "God" as the faher is "God"

    The son is just as much pure "spirit" as the father is...

    But the difference is that the Son is also fully man too.
    The son became man, but never stopped being pure Spirit.

  20. #270
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Well--that brings a question. When you state "God" here--are you referring to God the Son--or God the Father?

    You have God the Son as flesh and bone. Is God the Father the same substance?

    If not--could you explain the "****ousios" (same substance) God of the Trinitarian creeds?
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    The son of God is just as much "God" as the faher is "God"

    The son is just as much pure "spirit" as the father is...

    But the difference is that the Son is also fully man too.
    The son became man, but never stopped being pure Spirit.
    But 'pure spirit" does not touch upon the point of why the Trinitarians have God the Son as flesh and bone--and the Father as a Spirit only.

    The "****ousious"(same substance) God of the creeds declare they are of the same substance.

  21. #271
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    .....

    The "****ousious"(same substance) God of the creeds declare they are of the same substance.
    Yes, the father is not more "god" that the Son is 'god"

    Both the Father and the Son are equal in nature, for their nature is the one eternal God.

    So the Father is pure spirit and the Son is pure spirit.
    But so that he could suffer death on the cross, the Son was born as a human.

    But in being made a man the Son did not give up being God.
    The Son always is God.
    Thus the Son is always pure spirit like the father and so they are in unity of "substance' at all times.

    So this is why Christians believe that Jesus Christ has TWO NATURES.....
    Jesus is both 100% God and 100% man.

    Jesus is in unity with on the substance issue with the Father forever
    and Jesus is in unity with me on the substance issue as both Jesus and I are fully human.

  22. #272
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post-----But 'pure spirit" does not touch upon the point of why the Trinitarians have God the Son as flesh and bone--and the Father as a Spirit only.

    The "****ousious"(same substance) God of the creeds declare they are of the same substance.
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Yes, the father is not more "god" that the Son is 'god"

    Both the Father and the Son are equal in nature, for their nature is the one eternal God.

    So the Father is pure spirit and the Son is pure spirit.
    But so that he could suffer death on the cross, the Son was born as a human.

    But in being made a man the Son did not give up being God.
    The Son always is God.
    Thus the Son is always pure spirit like the father and so they are in unity of "substance' at all times.

    So this is why Christians believe that Jesus Christ has TWO NATURES.....
    Jesus is both 100% God and 100% man.

    Jesus is in unity with on the substance issue with the Father forever
    and Jesus is in unity with me on the substance issue as both Jesus and I are fully human.
    Still does not explain why the Bible has Jesus as flesh and bone, and the Creeds have both the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as the "****ousious"(same substance) God.

  23. #273
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Still does not explain why the Bible has Jesus as flesh and bone, and the Creeds have both the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as the "****ousious"(same substance) God.
    Yes, the father the son and the HS are the same in their 'god-ness"

    They have the same nature....their nature is God./
    None is more 'god" than the other.

    The father, the son and the HS are all equal in nature.

    thus they have the same "substance" when speaking of their god-nature.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 12-20-2012 at 07:17 AM.

  24. #274
    alanmolstad
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    and jesus was born flesh and blood.

    Jesus still is always pure spirit, when talking about his nature as God.

    but he now also was born as flesh and blood.

    he is called "The man Christ Jesus"

    So the Bible is very clear in that Jesus is fully human (flesh) in addition to being fully God, (spirit)





    So to review....
    Jesus is like me in that we share the same substance, and that substance is our human nature of flesh.

    Jesus is like the father in that they share the same substance, and that substance is pure spirit.

  25. #275
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Still does not explain why the Bible has Jesus as flesh and bone, and the Creeds have both the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as the "****ousious"(same substance) God.
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Yes, the father the son and the HS are the same in their 'god-ness"

    They have the same nature....their nature is God./
    None is more 'god" than the other.

    The father, the son and the HS are all equal in nature.

    thus they have the same "substance" when speaking of their god-nature.
    Do you consider "god-nature" a substance?

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