God as Spirit or flesh and bone

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Do you consider "god-nature" a substance?

Im not sure....

I think in the context of my answer I am thinking that one way to understand this issue is to make sure you understand that the "substance" of god...(Whatever you wish to call it) is shared in equal measure by the father, the son and the HS.

This means that whatever you think the father's naure is, the son and the HS share this in equal measure.

none is more 'god" that the others.

None is less "god" than the others.


if one is Spirit, then all are spirit in equal nature....and their nature is God.

[alanmolstad]

So to review:

jesus is pure spirit, having the same substance as the father in his nature as god.

Jesus is "flesh and bone" now because he is a resurrected human.

Jesus had a body of flesh and blood when he was conceived in the womb of Mary.
This body died later on a cross.

This deals only with the HUMAN nature of christ, but we always have to keep in mind that Jesus also have a God-nature too.

Thus Jesus has two natures at the same time.

He is of one substance with the father, and>
he is fully Human as with us.

[alanmolstad]

this is a basic teaching of the bible, as such it is important to me that if you have some doubts about the concept, or would like to go over some questions, that you go ahead and ask whatever is on your mind...

ask

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Im not sure....

I think in the context of my answer I am thinking that one way to understand this issue is to make sure you understand that the "substance" of god...(Whatever you wish to call it) is shared in equal measure by the father, the son and the HS.

This means that whatever you think the father's naure is, the son and the HS share this in equal measure.

none is more 'god" that the others.

None is less "god" than the others.

Again--the only way I connect "nature" with substance, is when one is referring to a physical cons***ution.

if one is Spirit, then all are spirit in equal nature....and their nature is God.

Then by a like standard--if one has a body of flesh and bone--then all have the same?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Again--the only way I connect "nature" with substance, is when one is referring to a physical cons***ution.

the word "substance" depends a lot on how you mean the word?...how you have set up the fuller contex?

So when talking about the nature of "God" we would say that his substance is Pure spirit.

Or pure love.
or pure truth.

But mostly in this context I would say that the substance of God is spirit.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Then by a like standard--if one has a body of flesh and bone--then all have the same?

No remember......only the Son is human.

So the substance of the Lord is spirit.
and the substance of humans is flesh.

So because Jesus is BOTH
God and Man, he has both a divine nature of pure spirit.
and-
a human nature of flesh.


The Father has the same substance as the son, but the father does not have a human nature.....

The HS has the same substance as the Son, but the HS does not have a human nature.

So all three members of the Trinity share in common the same divine substance...but only the Son has a human substance too.



ask more questions!

[alanmolstad]

John 1:1....

"the Word was with God, the Word was God.
The Word became flesh...."


but the Word never stopped being God.

[alanmolstad]

So the Word (Jesus) is God.....always was, always will be.

But the Word became man.

The Word never stopped being God, but the Word now has 2 natures

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the word "substance" depends a lot on how you mean the word?...how you have set up the fuller contex?

So when talking about the nature of "God" we would say that his substance is Pure spirit.

Or pure love.
or pure truth.

But mostly in this context I would say that the substance of God is spirit.

The Biblical record bears witness that it is also flesh and bone:


Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)


39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.



So--do you relate that substance to Christ only--or both the Father and the Son?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The Biblical record bears witness that it is also flesh and bone:

Ok, just a quick note on that...

The phrase "Flesh and Blood" means "mortal"

the phrase "Flesh and Bone" mean immortal.

Jesus was born with a mortal body of flesh and blood.

Jesus died...his mortal body died.

Then Jesus was resurrected in an immortal body of "Flesh and Bone"



so the two phrases mean two totally different things.

They are describing the nature of the human body Jesus had and has now.

the nature of his human body changed in the resurrection.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

So--do you relate that substance to Christ only--or both the Father and the Son?

The humanity of Jesus is not shared by other members of the trinity.

The father did not become man
The Holy Spirit did not become man.
Only the Son became man as we read in John1:1


But the deity of Christ is shared by the other members of the trinity.

So the Substance of the Father is like the substance of the Son and the HS ,. in that all are pure spirit.

[alanmolstad]

ask more, this is fun!

[alanmolstad]

well..no more questions?

Lets see if we might review what the Bible teaches then to make sure we are all up to speed.


The "substance" of God is spirit.
Now there are other way to define the term "substance', but for now Im going to define it as "pure Spirit"

This means that when i say that "Jesus is God" I am talking about the divine nature of Jesus. But at the same time I have to keep in mind that Jesus has 2 different natures for he is both God (pure spirit as is the father) and human (flesh like me)


So this is why Christians teach that Jesus was of the "same substance" with the Father.
For in his divine nature Jesus is God as much and in the same way that the Father is God and the HS.

So the father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit are the "same substance"

and I define that substance as "pure spirit"



So that is the first nature of Jesus, but there is also the other nature.
The human nature of Christ.
This is not shared by the father nor the Holy Spirit.

This is taught in John 1, "The word became4 flesh"

The Father did not become flesh
The Holy Spirit did not become flesh, but the Word (Jesus) did become flesh.

Jesus was born flesh and blood.
Lived as a man.
Died as a man
resurrected as a man .

right now jesus has an everlasting body of flesh and bone.
The same body that died, but it has a new nature.

[dberrie2000]

[quote]dberrie----The Biblical record bears witness that it is also flesh and bone:
Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


So--do you relate that substance to Christ only--or both the Father and the Son?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The humanity of Jesus is not shared by other members of the trinity.

The father did not become man
The Holy Spirit did not become man.
Only the Son became man as we read in John1:1


But the deity of Christ is shared by the other members of the trinity.

So the Substance of the Father is like the substance of the Son and the HS ,. in that all are pure spirit.

But not like the flesh and bone of the Son. If they are the "****ousious" God--and there is only one God--how can that God have different substances?
"****ousious" means "same substance".

[alanmolstad]

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;140313]

dberrie----The Biblical record bears witness that it is also flesh and bone:

...yes, AFTER THE RESURRECTION!


The phrase "Flesh and Blood" means mortal life.

The different phrase "Flesh and Bone" means eternal life.


Do you see that?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

-how can that God have different substances?
"****ousious" means "same substance".

They have the SAME substance!

same!, same!, same!

I have never said that in their deity they were different...

Go look what I have written...
(Written over and over on this I might add)

The Father and the Son are of the SAME substance....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
The humanity of Jesus is not shared by other members of the trinity.

The father did not become man
The Holy Spirit did not become man.
Only the Son became man as we read in John1:1


But the deity of Christ is shared by the other members of the trinity.

So the Substance of the Father is like the substance of the Son and the HS ,. in that all are pure spirit.

dberrie---But not like the flesh and bone of the Son. If they are the "****ousious" God--and there is only one God--how can that God have different substances?
"****ousious" means "same substance".

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

They have the SAME substance!

same!, same!, same!

I have never said that in their deity they were different...

But Jesus Christ in His deity is flesh and bone--is the Father of the same substance in His deity?

If not--how are they the same substance?

Go look what I have written...
(Written over and over on this I might add)

The Father and the Son are of the SAME substance....

You have the Father as Spirit--and the Son as Spirit and flesh and bone--how is that the same substance?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But Jesus Christ in His deity is flesh and bone--

No, in his divine nature he is only pure spirit.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

You have the Father as Spirit--and the Son as Spirit and flesh and bone--how is that the same substance?

The answer is that Jesus has two totally different natures.

At one with the same substance with the father. (spirit)
At one with men with the same substance as men (flesh)

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The answer is that Jesus has two totally different natures.

At one with the same substance with the father. (spirit)
At one with men with the same substance as men (flesh)

Which means that the substance of the Son does not match the substance of the Father--Jesus possesses something the Father does not, in substance--right?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Which means that the substance of the Son does not match the substance of the Father--Jesus possesses something the Father does not, in substance--right?

The Father is spirit. The Son has a resurrected body.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But Jesus Christ in His deity is flesh and bone--

No he is not!

Jesus is flesh and bone in his humanity.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Which means that the substance of the Son does not match the substance of the Father--Jesus possesses something the Father does not, in substance--right?

No , they are of the same substance in their nature a God.

But Jesus as a 2nd nature two that the Father does not have.


So Jesus has the very same substance as the father in his deity,
Yet in his humanity Jesus is what the father is not..."human"

[alanmolstad]

So to review.

The Bible tells us that God is spirit.
That means in his nature as God that jesus is also pure spirit.

This comes out to us in the teachings at John 1.

But 2000 years ago the Word became flesh.
the father did not become flesh
the Holy Spirit did not become flesh.
And whats more, the Bible says that jesus never stopped being God (pure spirit) to become flesh.


So Jesus is still pure spirit as God.

But because Jesus is also man he has a body, whereas the father and the HS do not have bodies of flesh

thus Jesus has two totaly different natures.
One is the nature of God with the father being of the same substance as the father (Spirit)

and the other nature is human, and so Jesus now has a body of flesh.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Which means that the substance of the Son does not match the substance of the Father--Jesus possesses something the Father does not, in substance--right?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

No , they are of the same substance in their nature a God.

But Jesus as a 2nd nature two that the Father does not have.

So Jesus has the very same substance as the father in his deity,

But the scriptures state that Christ possessed flesh and bone in His deity:


Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)


39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

You do agree that God the Father does not possess this attribute--right?