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Thread: God as Spirit or flesh and bone

  1. #376
    Libby
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    But you are having such a hard time with it that it seems like you are drifting further from God rather than closer.
    No, not really. I have actually come a long way in the last three months. And, like I said, my husband loves this church, especially the Pastor (and so do I, really), so I am afraid he simply would stop going, if I changed. That's what he did before. It took years to get him back in the church...I don't want to disturb what he has in this one.

    Bottom line is that in practical terms there is not a lot of differences between the two if you sit down and look at it.
    Yes, I'm coming around to seeing that...which is why I said, I could end up back where I started. I think, I just needed to work through some things that were troubling me. Sometimes, when you step away from something, for awhile, as I did, you can come back with a new perspective.

  2. #377
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Yes, I'm coming around to seeing that...which is why I said, I could end up back where I started. I think, I just needed to work through some things that were troubling me. Sometimes, when you step away from something, for awhile, as I did, you can come back with a new perspective.
    Let me give you an example that shows that when you look at it in a practical way the Arminianism and Calvinism position are really closer than you realize.

    1. Person A is elect and will be saved.

    2. Person B is not elect and will not be saved.

    3. Person A is elect and person B is not elect before either were even born.


    Thus far we should be in agreement.

    From my point of view person A is elect and will be saved, and person B is not elect and will not be saved.

    From your perspective person A is elect and will be saved, and person B is not elect and will not be saved.

    Despite our differences in why person A is elect and person B is not elect, it in no way changes the fact that person A is elect and person B is not elect. From a practical standpoint there is no difference.

    Lets take that one step further. Neither you or I know who is elect and who is not elect thus both of us would share the gospel with both person A and person B and invite both to come to Christ by faith. And we both would agree that both persons have a choice to either accept Christ or reject him. We would also agree that the basis for salvation is faith and those who place their faith in Christ will be saved. We also would agree that person A will accept Christ sometime in his lifetime and that person B will never accept Christ. Again from a practical standpoint our beliefs are the same.
    Last edited by Billyray; 05-06-2013 at 10:14 PM.

  3. #378
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Let me give you an example that shows that when you look at it in a practical way the Arminianism and Calvinism position are really closer than you realize.

    1. Person A is elect and will be saved.

    2. Person B is not elect and will not be saved.

    3. Person A is elect and person B is not elect before either were even born.


    Thus far we should be in agreement.

    From my point of view person A is elect and will be saved, and person B is not elect and will not be saved.

    From your perspective person A is elect and will be saved, and person B is not elect and will not be saved.

    Despite our differences in why person A is elect and person B is not elect, it in no way changes the fact that person A is elect and person B is not elect. From a practical standpoint there is no difference.

    Lets take that one step further. Neither you or I know who is elect and who is not elect thus both of us would share the gospel with both person A and person B and invite both to come to Christ by faith. And we both would agree that both persons have a choice to either accept Christ or reject him. We would also agree that the basis for salvation is faith and those who place their faith in Christ will be saved. We also would agree that person A will accept Christ sometime in his lifetime and that person B will never accept Christ. Again from a practical standpoint our beliefs are the same.
    Yes, I understand what you're saying and I agree...practically speaking, they are the same. I saw that when you pointed it out before...

  4. #379
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Yes, I understand what you're saying and I agree...practically speaking, they are the same. I saw that when you pointed it out before...
    Now lets look at the example of a baby. Jeff would say that a baby all the way up until age 8 doesn't sin. You would say that a baby doesn't sin but a 3-4 year old and upward sins. And I would say that we all sin. We would likely all agree that a child is incapable of accepting Christ. My personal belief (which is not based on scripture because the Bible is silent on this issue, with the exception of David's child, which is why I don't state it as fact) is that a baby/child sins but that since he is incapable of understanding right or wrong and is incapable at that age of accepting Christ he or his is sinful but not accountable thus will likely be saved. Jeff on the other hand says that children up to age 8 don't sin (which means that they do sin but is not called sin because he doesn't know right from wrong i.e. not accountable) thus this is the basis for his or her salvation. In a practical sense we would agree on this point. And your belief is probably in between Jeff's belief and my belief.

  5. #380
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Now lets look at the example of a baby. Jeff would say that a baby all the way up until age 8 doesn't sin. You would say that a baby doesn't sin but a 3-4 year old and upward sins. And I would say that we all sin. We would likely all agree that a child is incapable of accepting Christ. My personal belief (which is not based on scripture because the Bible is silent on this issue, with the exception of David's child, which is why I don't state it as fact) is that a baby/child sins but that since he is incapable of understanding right or wrong and is incapable at that age of accepting Christ he or his is sinful but not accountable thus will likely be saved. Jeff on the other hand says that children up to age 8 don't sin (which means that they do sin but is not called sin because he doesn't know right from wrong i.e. not accountable) thus this is the basis for his or her salvation. In a practical sense we would agree on this point. And your belief is probably in between Jeff's belief and my belief.
    I'm not sure Jeff would agree that children don't sin...only that they are not accountable until around age eight. I think Jeff and I agree that babies don't sin (and my belief is mostly from observation....I just don't think one can call anything a new baby does "sin"). But, I think they do start sinning quite young (long before the age of three).

    I think you're right that we can all agree that children are not "accountable" until they really understand what "sin" means and are old enough to turn to Christ.

  6. #381
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I'm not sure Jeff would agree that children don't sin...only that they are not accountable until around age eight.
    Yes, that is pretty much it--what I believe is that 8 is the minimum age at which a person could safely be considered to be accountable. The actual age will very from person to person, depending individual circumstances such as intelligence, upbringing, environments, etc. For a retarded person from a broken home in an amoral 3rd-world country, a sufficient grasp of good and evil might not be reached until 20 or 40 or 60. A sociopath might never reach that state. That is why we try to only baptize people who seem to meet a minimum degree of accountability for their actions. IMO, some kids are precocious enough to reach that state before they are 8. But we wait until at least 8.

    I think Jeff and I agree that babies don't sin (and my belief is mostly from observation....I just don't think one can call anything a new baby does "sin").
    Yes. Not just by observation, though--you can arrive at that conclusion merely by common sense, too.

    But, I think they do start sinning quite young (long before the age of three).
    IMO, only in a few rare cases.

    I think you're right that we can all agree that children are not "accountable" until they really understand what "sin" means and are old enough to turn to Christ.
    If we ALL agree on the truth of that, then I am glad.

  7. #382
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    Yes, that is pretty much it--what I believe is that 8 is the minimum age at which a person could safely be considered to be accountable.
    If we ALL agree on the truth of that, then I am glad.
    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    I think the very definition of the word sin helps us figure out who sins and who does not. If sin is the knowing, deliberate disobedience to God's will, then we sin when we understand that doing something would be wrong, and we deliberately do it anyway. In order to sin, you have to be able to sin. Babies can't sin because they lack both the requirements:

    They don't understand what God's will is yet.
    Therefore anything they did or failed to do was not rebellion against God on purpose.

    If we understand the above, then it helps us figure out the group of people the NT was referring to where it says that all have sinned. It has to exclude babies, just like "ALL" excludes Jesus, because although Jesus knew right from wrong, good and evil, He never deliberately rebelled against God.

    If I get too much change back at the store and I don't realize it, I took money that didn't belong to me, but I didn't do it on purpose, so it's not a sin. If I later realize my "sin" and I fail to return the money, THEN it's a sin.
    So do children under the age of 8 know right from wrong?

  8. #383
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    Yes. Not just by observation, though--you can arrive at that conclusion merely by common sense, too.
    Do you base your doctrine on what you feel is right or wrong OR based on what the word of God teaches?

  9. #384
    Libby
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    If we ALL agree on the truth of that, then I am glad.
    Me too. And, I am really tired of this particular discussion. I think we have hit all sides of it.

  10. #385
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So do children under the age of 8 know right from wrong?
    Some most likely do.

    Do ALL babies under 1 year old know right from wrong?

  11. #386
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Do you base your doctrine on what you feel is right or wrong OR based on what the word of God teaches?
    What I feel is right or wrong IS based on what the word of God teaches, so the answer is "both."

  12. #387
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    What I feel is right or wrong IS based on what the word of God teaches, so the answer is "both."
    But you have proven that your beliefs do not line up with the Bible, so the only thing that I can conclude is that you base your beliefs either on your feelings or some other source.

  13. #388
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    Some most likely do.

    Do ALL babies under 1 year old know right from wrong?
    I don't think children in general are fully aware of right and wrong. But you didn't address the point I was making, you said "If sin is the knowing, deliberate disobedience to God's will. . .".

    So do children under 8 sin or not?

  14. #389
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    But you have proven that your beliefs do not line up with the Bible,
    I say that YOU have proven the YOUR beliefs do not line up with the Bible. so the only thing that I can conclude is that you base your beliefs either on your feelings or some other source, such as a Creed or some tract or website.

  15. #390
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I don't think children in general are fully aware of right and wrong.
    How fully is a 1-week-old baby aware of right and wrong?


    So do children under 8 sin or not?
    Some most likely do. Are you saying that ALL of them do? I guess you HAVE to say that, since you take the verse "all have sinned" to an irrationally literal extent.
    Last edited by nrajeffreturns; 05-08-2013 at 12:32 PM.

  16. #391
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    How fully is a 1-week-old baby of right and wrong?
    As I said I don't think children--which would include infants--are fully aware of right and wrong.

  17. #392
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    Some most likely do.
    If children under the age of 8 are aware of right and wrong and sin what happens to them since they are not baptized?

  18. #393
    nrajeffreturns
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    Their sins get remitted when they do get baptized.

  19. #394
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    Their sins get remitted when they do get baptized.
    What happens if they die prior to getting baptized?

  20. #395
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    What happens if they die prior to getting baptized?
    Someone who isn't dead yet can baptize them by proxy in a temple, of course!

  21. #396
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    Someone who isn't dead yet can baptize them by proxy in a temple, of course!
    So you believe that some children under 8 require baptism?

  22. #397
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So you believe that some children under 8 require baptism?
    I believe that everyone who reaches a state of accountability and then sins, needs baptism, sooner or later. That's what's so great about LDS doctrine.

  23. #398
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    I believe that everyone who reaches a state of accountability and then sins, needs baptism, sooner or later. That's what's so great about LDS doctrine.
    http://mormon.org/faq/baptism-beliefs
    ". . .Immersion is symbolic of the death of a person’s sinful life and the rebirth into a spiritual life, dedicated to the service of God and His children. It is also symbolic of death and resurrection. (See Romans 6:3-6) Little children are redeemed through the mercy of Jesus Christ. They are “alive in Christ” and cannot sin. They do not need baptism until they understand the difference between right and wrong. The Lord has revealed that children should be baptized at eight years of age. (See Book of Mormon, Moroni 8:8-24; Doctrine and Covenants 29:46-47, 68:27). . ."

  24. #399
    alanmolstad
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    The age of accountability means you reach the age where you are held accountable for your sins...it doesn't mean you start to sin at only that age...

    There is a Bible verse that talks about how God "overlooked " the actions of people who for one reason or another were in the dark of their sins

  25. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So you believe that some children under 8 require baptism?
    Children under the age of 8 do not need baptism, if they die before that age.

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