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Thread: God as Spirit or flesh and bone

  1. #76
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueBlue? View Post
    You can try and put words in my mouth that I have never spoken all you want Billyray, but the more I read of your posts the more I see you care nothing for truth.
    Here is the section of your post that I quoted.

    Quote Originally Posted by TrueBlue? View Post
    .
    He understood who the Only True God was, and that Jesus was a God, but second to Our Father, with Our Father being the Only True God.
    What does ONLY true God mean to you?

  2. #77
    jdjhere
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    TrueBlue stated (rather emphatically): "but the more I read of your posts the more I see you care nothing for truth. I truly wonder if you truly believe in this false God that you espouse. Me thinks ?? you are only on here to find fault with Mormons because of some deep hatred. I have never seen anyone throw scripture under the bus as often as you have. Never have I seen anyone bare false witness of others as much as you have. With no diginity to yourself, you take things to the tenth degree no matter how ******** it makes you appear.

    Wow, TrueBlue. I would say that is a pretty nasty, hostile response to BillyRay who is just defending 1st century Christianity. Why do you have to make a personal attack on BillyRays character but not address his questions? He has a right to believe what he believes every bit as much as you do so why the hostility?

  3. #78
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Great you are making progress. Since you are a polytheist then tell me who is this one God?

    1 Cor8:6--"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."


    If one were to believe the scriptures--it was God the Father. The "one lord" was Jesus Christ.

    Was Paul a polytheist?

    The NT writers, nor the Early Church Fathers, for the main, believed Jesus Christ was the "one God".

    For them, God the Father was the only one God--and only God the Father. No other one God but Him.

  4. #79
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    It states there is but one God--no others.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Great you are making progress. Since you are a polytheist then tell me who is this one God? Then tell me who are the others who are NOT a God?
    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    For them, God the Father was the only one God--and only God the Father. No other one God but Him.
    so you don't believe Jesus is a God or the HS is a God?

  5. #80
    Snow Patrol
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    TrueBlue, you need to lighten up on the criticism here.

  6. #81
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000
    It states there is but one God--no others.
    Originally Posted by Billyray
    Great you are making progress. Since you are a polytheist then tell me who is this one God? Then tell me who are the others who are NOT a God?
    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 --1 Cor8:6--"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."


    If one were to believe the scriptures--it was God the Father. The "one lord" was Jesus Christ.

    Was Paul a polytheist?

    The NT writers, nor the Early Church Fathers, for the main, believed Jesus Christ was the "one God".

    For them, God the Father was the only one God--and only God the Father. No other one God but Him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    so you don't believe Jesus is a God or the HS is a God?
    I am stating what the NT writers believed concerning the "one God"--how are you relating that to whether I believe Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost is a God?

    The LDS believe in the Godhead:

    1) God the Father
    2) God the Son
    3) God the Holy Ghost.


    But you know that---we have discussed this several times now.

    The NT writers believed that Jesus Christ was a God--but not the "one God". That designation was reserved for the Father only.

    So--how do you explain Paul's designation of God the Father as the "one God"--separating out Jesus Christ within the same sentence as the "one Lord"?

    If Jesus Christ and God the Father were the same God--surely Paul would have known it. It would be the perfect chance to designate Jesus Christ and God the Father as the "one God".

    Paul let that opportunity p***, and not for no reason. And on more than one occasion did Paul do so:


    Ephesians4:4-6--"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

    6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

    Why?

  7. #82
    RealFakeHair
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    Default LookC here I turned you into a Baptist.

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I am stating what the NT writers believed

    Ephesians4:4-6--"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

    6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

    Why?
    See how easy that was dberrie, just took out the Gods and made you a Baptist or something.

  8. #83
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000
    I am stating what the NT writers believed

    Ephesians4:4-6--"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

    6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

    Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    See how easy that was dberrie, just took out the Gods and made you a Baptist or something.

    Baptist wouldn't list the "one God" as God the Father, and separate out Jesus Christ from that "one God"--into another separate designation--the "one Lord".

  9. #84
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I am stating what the NT writers believed concerning the "one God"--how are you relating that to whether I believe Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost is a God?
    Because of what you said
    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    It states there is but one God--no others.
    If there is ONE God and no others can Jesus or the Holy Spirit be a God?

  10. #85
    RealFakeHair
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    Default Hey, I'm working on you.

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Baptist wouldn't list the "one God" as God the Father, and separate out Jesus Christ from that "one God"--into another separate designation--the "one Lord".
    There are three persons in the Godhead, The Father and The Son and The Holy Ghost.
    The simple way of putting it is, this, God The Father, Old Testament.
    Jesus the Son, New Testament.
    The Holy Ghost is what we have to direct us and lead us and comfort us in Christ Jesus, Amen!
    Now see how easy that is?

  11. #86
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Because of what you said

    If there is ONE God and no others can Jesus or the Holy Spirit be a God?
    Of course--but not the "one God"--that designation was reserved for God the Father only in the NT.

    It was the NT writers, and the ECF way of remaining a monotheist, and believing that more Gods existed than the Father. Which meant the object of their worship was God the Father.

  12. #87
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Isaiah 43
    10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

    Tell me what this verse says.
    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    It states there is but one God--no others.
    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Of course--but not the "one God"--that designation was reserved for God the Father only in the NT.
    This doesn't make any sense to me. Let's start over. Explain what Isaiah 43:10 means.

  13. #88
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    This doesn't make any sense to me. Let's start over. Explain what Isaiah 43:10 means.
    It means just what Michael Heiser points out:


    4. The denial statements of Isaiah and elsewhere ("there is no god beside me") do not cons***ute denials of the existence of other ʾĕlōhîm. Rather, they are statements of Yahweh's incomparability.

    If it was Jesus Christ that makes these statements--do you believe there was no God the Father? That Jesus Christ was formed before God the Father?

    Billyray--there is one reality the faith alone have to come to--there were a number of Gods in the Hebrew Bible, found within the divine council, and also, including the Godhead--that is a fact.

    And the NT writers, and the ECF both separated out God the Father as the "one God"--and Jesus Christ as the "one Lord".

    Sorry that does not collate with the faith alone theology--but very little does, when comparing the Bible and faith alone theology.

  14. #89
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    It means just what Michael Heiser points out:


    4. The denial statements of Isaiah and elsewhere ("there is no god beside me") do not cons***ute denials of the existence of other ʾĕlōhîm. Rather, they are statements of Yahweh's incomparability.
    Isaiah 43
    10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

    How do you come to that conclusion from this verse?

  15. #90
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    If it was Jesus Christ that makes these statements--do you believe there was no God the Father? That Jesus Christ was formed before God the Father?
    One God in three persons. So your questions don't make any sense.

  16. #91
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000
    It means just what Michael Heiser points out:


    4. The denial statements of Isaiah and elsewhere ("there is no god beside me") do not cons***ute denials of the existence of other ʾĕlōhîm. Rather, they are statements of Yahweh's incomparability.


    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Isaiah 43
    10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

    How do you come to that conclusion from this verse?

    As Michael Heiser points out:

    2. The term monotheism is inadequate to describe what it is Israel believed about God and the members of his council. As the text explicitly says, there are other ʾĕlōhîm.


    Could you explain how Jesus Christ makes the statement there was no God formed before Him--and the existence of God the Father?

    How did Jesus have a God and Father--and there was none besides Him?

  17. #92
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    As Michael Heiser points out:

    2. The term monotheism is inadequate to describe what it is Israel believed about God and the members of his council. As the text explicitly says, there are other ʾĕlōhîm.
    Isaiah 43
    10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

    Can you tell me how you came to the conclusion that there are other gods from this verse. Thus far you have not done so.

  18. #93
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Could you explain how Jesus Christ makes the statement there was no God formed before Him--and the existence of God the Father?
    Your question doesn't really make sense because the one God is in three persons. So when Christ speaks about one God that would include the three persons.

  19. #94
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000
    Could you explain how Jesus Christ makes the statement there was no God formed before Him--and the existence of God the Father?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Your question doesn't really make sense because the one God is in three persons.
    You mean it does not make sense to those of the faith alone theology?

    Where in the Bible do you see the three that make up the Godhead specifically listed as the "one God"?

    There are scriptures that specifically list the composition of them "one God"--and it does not include Jesus Christ:

    1 Cor8:6--"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."


    So when Christ speaks about one God that would include the three persons.
    Christ did not claim to be the same person as God the Father. His claim was that God the Father was His God and Father:

    St John20:17--"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

    Which was confirmed by Peter:

    1 Peter1:3--"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"

    That was the NT belief of the Godhead--and the ECF.

  20. #95
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    You mean it does not make sense to those of the faith alone theology?
    No it doesn't make sense because there is one God in three persons. So if Jesus is speaking it doesn't mean that there is no longer the Father and the Son and the three persons of the single God.

  21. #96
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Christ did not claim to be the same person as God the Father.
    Are you trying to show your i gnorance?

  22. #97
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000
    Could you explain how Jesus Christ makes the statement there was no God formed before Him--and the existence of God the Father?
    Originally Posted by Billyray
    Your question doesn't really make sense because the one God is in three persons.

    dberrie----You mean it does not make sense to those of the faith alone theology?

    Where in the Bible do you see the three that make up the Godhead specifically listed as the "one God"?

    There are scriptures that specifically list the composition of them "one God"--and it does not include Jesus Christ:

    1 Cor8:6--"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    No it doesn't make sense because there is one God in three persons.
    Again--where in the Biblical text does it list three persons as the "one God"?

    There are scriptures that specifically defines who the "one God" is--and it does not list but one person there--God the Father:

    Ephesians4:4-6--"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

    6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."


    Could you explain for us how this scripture separates out Jesus Christ from God the Father, as pertaining to the "one God", and designates only God the Father as the "one God"--and your premise be true concerning three persons in the "one God"?

    Could you please show us anywhere it specifically designates all three persons as the "one God"?

  23. #98
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Could you explain for us how this scripture separates out Jesus Christ from God the Father, as pertaining to the "one God", and designates only God the Father as the "one God"--and your premise be true concerning three persons in the "one God"?
    Sure it is a way to distinguish the different members of the Trinity.

  24. #99
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 -- Again--where in the Biblical text does it list three persons as the "one God"?

    There are scriptures that specifically defines who the "one God" is--and it does not list but one person there--God the Father:

    Ephesians4:4-6--"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

    6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

    Could you explain for us how this scripture separates out Jesus Christ from God the Father, as pertaining to the "one God", and designates only God the Father as the "one God"--and your premise be true concerning three persons in the "one God"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Sure it is a way to distinguish the different members of the Trinity.
    You are right--and the NT distinguishes only God the Father as the "one God".

  25. #100
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    You are right--and the NT distinguishes only God the Father as the "one God".
    And the Son as "one LORD" who is the second person of the Trinity.

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