Page 9 of 19 FirstFirst ... 5678910111213 ... LastLast
Results 201 to 225 of 456

Thread: God as Spirit or flesh and bone

  1. #201
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,258

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    --And the triple point empirically demonstrates it does occur "at exactly 273.16 K (0.01 °C) and a partial vapour pressure of 611.73 pascals (ca. 6.1173 millibars, 0.0060373".
    And even if that is true--how do you relate that to the Father and Son being two different substances, and yet, the "****ousious" God?

    Are you saying that under 6.1173 millibars--God the Father and the Son become the same substance?

    Water may be the same substance in any given condition of water, ice, or steam--but flesh and bone and spirit are not.
    Last edited by dberrie2000; 07-19-2012 at 10:25 AM.

  2. #202
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    And even if that is true--how do you relate that to the Father and Son being two different substances, and yet, the "****ousious" God?
    The Father and the Son are both equally God.

  3. #203
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,258

    Default

    dberrie---And even if that is true--how do you relate that to the Father and Son being two different substances, and yet, the "****ousious" God?

    Are you saying that under 6.1173 millibars--God the Father and the Son become the same substance?

    Water may be the same substance in any given condition of water, ice, or steam--but flesh and bone and spirit are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    The Father and the Son are both equally God.

    But that has not been argued. The argument is how the Trinitarians have God the Father as Spirit and God the Son as flesh and bone--and how that cons***utes the "****ousious" (same substance)God.

  4. #204
    Senior Member MacG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    956

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    Are you saying that under 6.1173 millibars--God the Father and the Son become the same substance?
    I am saying to understand the Trinity, the foundation is the understanding of three simultaneous forms of one substance. They already are the one substance in three forms. This is prior to the incarnation. Do you understand this part of our doctrine? To understand does not mean agreeing with it. This is a yes/no question before moving on.
    "Said I'm not what I ought to be, but I'm better, better than I used to be, I'm gettin better all the time" - Blind Boys of Alabama Ephesians 4:22-24 NASB ..."that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth"

  5. #205
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,258

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    I am saying to understand the Trinity, the foundation is the understanding of three simultaneous forms of one substance.

    But first--would you explain how a spirit and flesh and bone is the same substance?

  6. #206
    RealFakeHair
    Guest

    Default Good luck with the yes or no thinkie.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    I am saying to understand the Trinity, the foundation is the understanding of three simultaneous forms of one substance. They already are the one substance in three forms. This is prior to the incarnation. Do you understand this part of our doctrine? To understanding does not mean agreeing with it. This is a yes/no question before moving on.
    Waiting with baited breath.

    dberrie and I are playing dodge ball, you can join in too.

  7. #207
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    But that has not been argued. The argument is how the Trinitarians have God the Father as Spirit and God the Son as flesh and bone--and how that cons***utes the "****ousious" (same substance)God.
    But that is exactly what is in question here.

  8. #208
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,258

    Default

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--But that has not been argued. The argument is how the Trinitarians have God the Father as Spirit and God the Son as flesh and bone--and how that cons***utes the "****ousious" (same substance)God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    But that is exactly what is in question here.
    True. So--could you explain how God the Father is Spirit--God the Son is flesh and bone--and that collates with a "****ousious"(same substance) God?

  9. #209
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    True. So--could you explain how God the Father is Spirit--God the Son is flesh and bone--and that collates with a "****ousious"(same substance) God?
    Sure. They are both equally God.

  10. #210
    Senior Member MacG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    956

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    But first--would you explain how a spirit and flesh and bone is the same substance?
    I cannot even attempt an explanation of multiplication to one who wishes to understand it without their first understanding addition. Neither can I attempt to convey my understanding of the incarnation to you without you understanding three coexistent forms of the same substance.
    "Said I'm not what I ought to be, but I'm better, better than I used to be, I'm gettin better all the time" - Blind Boys of Alabama Ephesians 4:22-24 NASB ..."that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth"

  11. #211
    James Banta
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Patrol View Post
    Well, I could get technical and ask how God, even being omnipresent, can see Hagar if God does not have eye*****, cornea, etc.
    Can the Holy Ghost see? Does He have eye*****, cornea etc. It is clear from the D&C that mormonism teaches He doesn't have a body of flesh and bone. That would mean He can see either?


    Doctrine and Covenants 130:22
    The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.


    Your answer/question here is senseless. You have to understand mormon teaching before you try to post here and it is clear that you do NOT know what you are talking about.. IHS jim

  12. #212
    alanmolstad
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Well, if that is correct, that leaves the Trinitarians in the unenviable position of trying to explain how they believe in the "****ousious"(same substance) God.
    Jesus is both God and man....

    Thus Jesus is of the same "substance" of the father concerning his God nature.....being in nature equal with the father. (pure spirit)

    And yet in his human nature he is of the same "substance" as me, being fully 100% human. (Flesh)

    any questions of this point so far?

  13. #213
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,258

    Default

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--But that is just it--the trinitarians have it different substances--God the Father as a Spirit--God the Son with a physical Body of flesh and bone. They do not consider those the same substance. If they do--please give a cite and explanation of that.

    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post--That is correct...

    dberrie---Well, if that is correct, that leaves the Trinitarians in the unenviable position of trying to explain how they believe in the "****ousious"(same substance) God.

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Jesus is both God and man....

    Thus Jesus is of the same "substance" of the father concerning his God nature.....
    And what has the nature of God or the fact that Jesus was both God and man have to do with the fact that the Trinitarians believe the Father to have a spirit only--and Jesus Christ to possess a body of flesh and bones?

    That is two different substances--as you have already agreed above.

    If that is true--how do you believe in a "****ousious" (same substance) God?

  14. #214
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    -how do you believe in a "****ousious" (same substance) God?
    They are both equally God.

  15. #215
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,258

    Default

    dberrie----And what has the nature of God or the fact that Jesus was both God and man have to do with the fact that the Trinitarians believe the Father to have a spirit only--and Jesus Christ to possess a body of flesh and bones?
    That is two different substances--as you have already agreed above.

    If that is true--how do you believe in a "****ousious" (same substance) God?



    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    They are both equally God.

    Won't help your cause. You are going to have to explain how it is that the Trinitarians believe that God the Father is just a Spirit--and Jesus Christ has a body of flesh and bone--and they be the "****ousious"(same substance) God.
    Last edited by dberrie2000; 07-20-2012 at 03:34 AM.

  16. #216
    alanmolstad
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    If that is true--how do you believe in a "****ousious" (same substance) God?[/B]



    .
    I think it is answered like thus...

    Jesus is the same nature as the father.
    Everything you can say about the nature of the father, you can same in an equal manner about the Son.

    So in this way we can know and have faith in the idea that Jesus and the Father share the same "substance" in that both are God , the one true God Almighty.

    So they, (The father and the Son) are of the same nature, the same substance, in that they are God....and there is only one God.

    But in addition to being Fully 100% God Almighty, Jesus is also fully human.

    So this is the core of the Christian Faith, ....That we truly have "God with us" in the person of Jesus Christ.

    Jesus is God almighty, wrapped in 100% human flesh with all it's weakness and deterioration that we all suffer with.

  17. #217
    alanmolstad
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    And what has the nature of God or the fact that Jesus was both God and man have to do with the fact that the Trinitarians believe the Father to have a spirit only--and Jesus Christ to possess a body of flesh and bones?

    ?

    This was a hard worded question for me to understand what you are asking about...

    But let me take a shot at what I think you are pointing to...

    Jesus is God.
    Jesus is pure spirit, just as the Father is pure spirit...

    This is their shared nature as the one true God.


    So the God-nature of Christ is pure Love,pure Spirit.


    and this pure Love, pure Spirit is wrapped in a covering of flesh in the womb of Mary.
    Notice Jesus never stops being pure Love, pure Spirit,
    but His Pure love, pure spirit nature is covered in the flesh of man so that Jesus could know death.

  18. #218
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Won't help your cause.
    That is the exact thing that was meant by this term. Don't you think that the guys who used this term didn't realize that Jesus had a resurrected body?

  19. #219
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,258

    Default

    Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---They are both equally God.
    dberrie---Won't help your cause. You are going to have to explain how it is that the Trinitarians believe that God the Father is just a Spirit--and Jesus Christ has a body of flesh and bone--and they be the "****ousious"(same substance) God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    That is the exact thing that was meant by this term. Don't you think that the guys who used this term didn't realize that Jesus had a resurrected body?

    Huh? Are you saying that the Early Church Fathers didn't know Jesus Christ was resurrected and possessed a body of flesh and bone?

    If they did not have that basic information--how can we rely on the Nicene creed? Trinitarianism?

    ****ousious was and is defined as "same substance":



    http://home.catholicweb.com/covingto...Item?ID=317816


    This Greek word <<****ousious>> is translated into Latin as <<consubstantialem>> and as we see in the revised English language Missal as “consubstantial.” As the Church prays together that Jesus is “consubstantial with the Father” we are expressing as clearly as our language will allow our belief that Jesus is God and in doing so confirming our belief in the Most Holy Trinity. While the Son (Jesus) is not the Father, He shares the same substance as the Father — here we have the beginning of our Trinitarian theology.


    http://voices.yahoo.com/definitions-...s-8303811.html



    **** ousious vs. ****i ousious - ****iousios ("of like/similar substance") was the idea that the Father and Son were related in substance but not the same. This allowed for the incarnation while remaining true to the unchanging nature of God. ****ousious , by contrast, held to the idea that the Father and the Son were of the same substance. This was the hallmark of the Nicene Creed.

  20. #220
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,258

    Default

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---And what has the nature of God or the fact that Jesus was both God and man have to do with the fact that the Trinitarians believe the Father to have a spirit only--and Jesus Christ to possess a body of flesh and bones?

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    This was a hard worded question for me to understand what you are asking about...

    But let me take a shot at what I think you are pointing to...

    Jesus is God.
    Jesus is pure spirit, just as the Father is pure spirit...

    This is their shared nature as the one true God.
    Possessing a "spirit" does not separate God the Father from Jesus Christ nor any of mankind--as they all possessed spirits.


    But, in the Trinitarian theology--this does:


    Luke24:39--"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

    The Trinitarian theology has God the Father and Jesus Christ as the "****ousious" God--same substance. How is a Spirit and flesh and bone the same substance?



    So the God-nature of Christ is pure Love,pure Spirit.


    and this pure Love, pure Spirit is wrapped in a covering of flesh in the womb of Mary.
    Notice Jesus never stops being pure Love, pure Spirit,
    but His Pure love, pure spirit nature is covered in the flesh of man so that Jesus could know death.

    And Jesus Christ is still a man, with a resurrected body of flesh and bone. That's the problem. Not that He was--but still is.

    1 Timothy2:5--"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

  21. #221
    alanmolstad
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Possessing a "spirit" does not separate God the Father from Jesus Christ nor any of mankind--as they all possessed spirits.


    But, in the Trinitarian theology--this does:


    Luke24:39--"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

    "
    Yes, this is why we talk about the "incarnation"
    God became man.

    God , (who is pure spirit)
    became man (who is flesh)

    God never stopped being Spirit.
    So Jesus was then and still is fully 100% Spirit, and God.

    But we do say that God became flesh...He became wrapped in human flesh.

    Sorta like a loaf of bread is always a loaf of bread, even if you wrap it in plastic.
    The loaf of bread is not changed , its still just a loaf of bread.
    But you did wrap it in plastic.

    God who is pure spirit, is always pure spirit.
    God cant change or take-away from his inner nature.
    But God can and did wrap himself in human flesh.


    This is the meaning to the words "God with us"

    The Father does not have a body of flesh.
    Before the Word entered the womb of Mary he had no body of flesh.

    But in that single moment inside the womb of Mary we understand that the Spirit of God was wrapped in 100% human flesh.

    Now after the resurrection we do see in the upper room where Jesus himself pops in for a visit.
    The men thought that Being dead that Jesus had to be a ghost.
    (This same thing was later spoken of of Peter remember?)
    and this is why that Jesus had to tell his men to handle him and see for themselves that it was really Him, really the SAME BODY that hung on the cross, the same body that he received in the womb of Mary, except for a changed nature from mortal to everlasting.

    And we will have a new body one day just like the body that Jesus has!


    So nothing Jesus said is to be understood as Jesus not saying he was God...LOL

    But he does ask his men (and us) to believe that it is truly the same body that he was born with that he has now in heaven.

    He tells us this so that we can have faith in just as the human body was raised from the dead, so to can our own dead human bodies be in the same way raised from the dead.

  22. #222
    alanmolstad
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    And Jesus Christ is still a man, with a resurrected body of flesh and bone. That's the problem. Not that He was--but still is.

    "
    Yes, this is the message of the Christian church.
    We are not saying that jesus was just man, but that jesus is fully Human, AND fully God.

    Fully human means that we can look to the body of Christ to see what God will do for our own human bodies of flesh one day.
    For Jesus is fully human......fully God.
    The 2 totally different natures in union.


    The Word, was made flesh.

    The Word in flesh will always be from now on "in" flesh.

    All that we will ever know about God, all that we will ever come to know about the Father, is already given to us in the Son.

  23. #223
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,258

    Default

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Possessing a "spirit" does not separate God the Father from Jesus Christ nor any of mankind--as they all possessed spirits.


    But, in the Trinitarian theology--this does:


    Luke24:39--"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."


    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Yes, this is why we talk about the "incarnation"
    God became man.

    God , (who is pure spirit)
    became man (who is flesh)


    So--is God a Spirit--or flesh and bone?

  24. #224
    alanmolstad
    Guest

    Default

    Wrapped in human flesh.
    wrapped...not "replaced"

    So the Word that is always pure spirit was wrapped in flesh.

  25. #225
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,258

    Default

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Possessing a "spirit" does not separate God the Father from Jesus Christ nor any of mankind--as they all possessed spirits.


    But, in the Trinitarian theology--this does:


    Luke24:39--"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Yes, this is why we talk about the "incarnation"
    God became man.

    God , (who is pure spirit)
    became man (who is flesh)


    dberrie---So--is God a Spirit--or flesh and bone?


    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Wrapped in human flesh.

    Are you stating here that the answer to the question---"So--is God a Spirit--or flesh and bone?"----being God is flesh?

    That is quite a contrast to the Trinity theology of God the Father being a Spirit only and Jesus Christ being a resurrected man of flesh and bone.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •