The Regeneration through water baptism

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Again--I believe it means just what James explains it does--both works and faith cons***ute justification.

What is it about that you do not believe?

Billyray--I know that plays havoc with your theology--but so does the whole of the NT.

DB you are lost and the fact that you believe that you are saved by works proves this point. You use about 6 cherry picked verses and completely ignore the rest of the NT. What do you do with all of the verses that clearly teach that we are saved by grace through faith and NOT by works?

[alanmolstad]

the water simply shows us physically what has already happened to the person's heart......

Water has no ability to change any person, it just makes us wet.
But the act of getting our skin clean via water is a symbol of the act of God cleaning our hearts.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the water simply shows us physically what has already happened to the person's heart......

Water has no ability to change any person, it just makes us wet.
But the act of getting our skin clean via water is a symbol of the act of God cleaning our hearts.

With a bar of soap I've seen miracle changes in my cousin Bruce.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

DB you are lost and the fact that you believe that you are saved by works proves this point.

Cite, please. Where have I ever claimed I am saved by works? The scriptures bear witness that it is those who obey God--and do His works--which receive of God's saving Grace:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

How does that compare to the faith alone theology--which teaches salvation through a faith without works--IE--dead faith saves?


James 2:26--King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

You use about 6 cherry picked verses and completely ignore the rest of the NT.

And where do we find the Biblical doctrine that one is saved through faith without works?


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

What do you do with all of the verses that clearly teach that we are saved by grace through faith and NOT by works?

Is that reference to faith above--a reference to dead faith?

[alanmolstad]

not sure Mr Billy keeps track of topics here lately....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

not sure Mr Billy keeps track of topics here lately....

His post indicates he tracks them pretty closely--even numbering them:

Originally Posted by Billyray View PostDB you are lost and the fact that you believe that you are saved by works proves this point. You use about 6 cherry picked verses and completely ignore the rest of the NT.

Maybe you could help him out:

And where do we find the Biblical doctrine that one is saved through faith without works?


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

His post indicates he tracks them pretty closely--even numbering them:

I dont know...we shall have to see I guess.

I do know that I have not seen his name pop up for a long-long time...so Im guessing he no longer has his email connected to this forum

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I dont know...we shall have to see I guess.

I do know that I have not seen his name pop up for a long-long time...so Im guessing he no longer has his email connected to this forum

Then maybe you could help Billyray out:

And where do we find the Biblical doctrine that one is saved through faith without works?


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostI dont know...we shall have to see I guess.

I do know that I have not seen his name pop up for a long-long time...so Im guessing he no longer has his email connected to this forum

Then maybe you could help Billyray out:

And where do we find the Biblical doctrine that one is saved through faith without works?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his powe

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostI dont know...we shall have to see I guess.

I do know that I have not seen his name pop up for a long-long time...so Im guessing he no longer has his email connected to this forum

Then maybe you could help Billyray out:

And where do we find the Biblical doctrine that one is saved through faith without works?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

Bump for Alan

[dberrie2000]

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;161987]Then maybe you could help Billyray out:

And where do we find the Biblical doctrine that one is saved through faith without works?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

Bump for Alan

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

***us3:5--"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"


There has been some discussion between the relationship between water baptism and salvation. Could water baptism be connected to "regeneration" and not be salvational?


http://www.truthmagazine.com/archive...GOT034331.html


What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? We have collected the comments of various outstanding Bible scholars from a diversity of religious groups. These men often differ on some of the details in this p***age, but they all agree as to what the "washing of regeneration" is. We do not cite them as our authority, but ask that you weigh their arguments carefully.

John Wesley: "Sanctification, expressed by the laver of regeneration (that is, baptism, the thing signified, as well as the outward sign), and the renewal of the Holy Ghost, which purifies the soul, as water cleanses the body, and renews it in the whole image of God" (One Volume New Testament Commentary, Wesley, Clarke, Henry, et. al.).


Cambridge Greek Testament (J.H. Bernard): "That the 'washing of regeneration' is the Water of Baptism is undoubted; see Eph. 5:26 . . . It is the instrument (dia) of salvation (cp. 1 Pet. 3:21 . . . ), the means, that is, through which we are placed in a 'state of salvation,' in union with the mystical Body of Christ; cp. Gal. 3:27. . ."

The New Bible Commentary (A.M. Stibbs): "In status this salvation is made ours through the outward seal of baptism; in vital experience it comes through the inner quickening by the Spirit."

The Pulpit Commentary (A.C. Hervey): "Here we have the means through or by which God's mercy saves us . . . (regeneration) therefore, very fitly describes the new birth in holy baptism, when the believer is put into possession of a new spiritual life, a new nature, and a new inheritance of glory. And the laver of baptism is called 'laver of regeneration,' because it is the ordained means by or through which regeneration is obtained."

William Hendriksen: "It is clear from such p***ages as John 3:3,5 and especially Ephesians 5:26 (cf. Heb. 10:22) that this 'washing of regeneration and renewing' stand in some relation to the rite of baptism. Undoubtedly, also here in ***us 3:5 there is an implied reference to this sacrament" (New Testament Commentary).

Albert Barnes: "The word (washing) itself would naturally be understood as referring to baptism (comp. Notes on Acts 22:16), which was regarded as the emblem of washing away sins, or of cleansing from them" (Barnes' Notes on the New Testament).

Henry Alford: "Observe, there is here no figure: the words are literal: Baptism is taken as in all its completion, the outward visible sign accompanied by the inward spiritual grace; and as thus complete, it not only represents, but is the new birth." At Hebrews 10:22, Alford says the clause having our body washed with pure water "refers directly to Christian baptism" and cites washing of water (Eph. 5:26) and washing of regeneration (***. 3:5) as "****ogous expressions" (The Greek New Testament).

James Macknight: "Through the bath of regeneration: through baptism; called 'the bath of regeneration,' not because any change in the nature of the baptized person is produced by baptism, but because it is an emblem of the purification of his soul from sin. . . " (Apostolical Epistles).

G.R. Beasley-Murray: Beasley-Murray said in 1962 "of all the commentators who have written on these Epistles [1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, ***us], I can find but one who denies" that this refers to baptism. He says, "All things considered, it requires a real hardiness of spirit to refuse the weight of this evidence. . . " (Baptism, pp. 209, 210). I have come across one additional more recent commentator who denies that baptism is under consideration.

What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? These commentators all agree and most of them cite biblical evidence to back up their position. The "washing of regeneration" in ***us 3:5 is baptism. In the chart below we have replaced the phrase "washing of regeneration" with the word baptism. This is proper since this is the meaning of the phrase.



Where does this leave faith alone theology? They carefully eliminate water baptism from anything salvational. But yet, if the testimonies of Christ, the Early Church Fathers, and the scholars are true--then it is the quite attached to regeneration.

Unless "baptism" is coupled with a proper faith, you might as well be undergoing a Hindu cleasing ceremony.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

***us3:5--"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

There has been some discussion between the relationship between water baptism and salvation. Could water baptism be connected to "regeneration" and not be salvational?

http://www.truthmagazine.com/archive...GOT034331.html

What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? We have collected the comments of various outstanding Bible scholars from a diversity of religious groups. These men often differ on some of the details in this p***age, but they all agree as to what the "washing of regeneration" is. We do not cite them as our authority, but ask that you weigh their arguments carefully.

John Wesley: "Sanctification, expressed by the laver of regeneration (that is, baptism, the thing signified, as well as the outward sign), and the renewal of the Holy Ghost, which purifies the soul, as water cleanses the body, and renews it in the whole image of God" (One Volume New Testament Commentary, Wesley, Clarke, Henry, et. al.).


Cambridge Greek Testament (J.H. Bernard): "That the 'washing of regeneration' is the Water of Baptism is undoubted; see Eph. 5:26 . . . It is the instrument (dia) of salvation (cp. 1 Pet. 3:21 . . . ), the means, that is, through which we are placed in a 'state of salvation,' in union with the mystical Body of Christ; cp. Gal. 3:27. . ."

The New Bible Commentary (A.M. Stibbs): "In status this salvation is made ours through the outward seal of baptism; in vital experience it comes through the inner quickening by the Spirit."

The Pulpit Commentary (A.C. Hervey): "Here we have the means through or by which God's mercy saves us . . . (regeneration) therefore, very fitly describes the new birth in holy baptism, when the believer is put into possession of a new spiritual life, a new nature, and a new inheritance of glory. And the laver of baptism is called 'laver of regeneration,' because it is the ordained means by or through which regeneration is obtained."

William Hendriksen: "It is clear from such p***ages as John 3:3,5 and especially Ephesians 5:26 (cf. Heb. 10:22) that this 'washing of regeneration and renewing' stand in some relation to the rite of baptism. Undoubtedly, also here in ***us 3:5 there is an implied reference to this sacrament" (New Testament Commentary).

Albert Barnes: "The word (washing) itself would naturally be understood as referring to baptism (comp. Notes on Acts 22:16), which was regarded as the emblem of washing away sins, or of cleansing from them" (Barnes' Notes on the New Testament).

Henry Alford: "Observe, there is here no figure: the words are literal: Baptism is taken as in all its completion, the outward visible sign accompanied by the inward spiritual grace; and as thus complete, it not only represents, but is the new birth." At Hebrews 10:22, Alford says the clause having our body washed with pure water "refers directly to Christian baptism" and cites washing of water (Eph. 5:26) and washing of regeneration (***. 3:5) as "****ogous expressions" (The Greek New Testament).

James Macknight: "Through the bath of regeneration: through baptism; called 'the bath of regeneration,' not because any change in the nature of the baptized person is produced by baptism, but because it is an emblem of the purification of his soul from sin. . . " (Apostolical Epistles).

G.R. Beasley-Murray: Beasley-Murray said in 1962 "of all the commentators who have written on these Epistles [1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, ***us], I can find but one who denies" that this refers to baptism. He says, "All things considered, it requires a real hardiness of spirit to refuse the weight of this evidence. . . " (Baptism, pp. 209, 210). I have come across one additional more recent commentator who denies that baptism is under consideration.

What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? These commentators all agree and most of them cite biblical evidence to back up their position. The "washing of regeneration" in ***us 3:5 is baptism. In the chart below we have replaced the phrase "washing of regeneration" with the word baptism. This is proper since this is the meaning of the phrase.


Where does this leave faith alone theology? They carefully eliminate water baptism from anything salvational. But yet, if the testimonies of Christ, the Early Church Fathers, and the scholars are true--then it is the quite attached to regeneration.

Originally Posted by Apologette

Unless "baptism" is coupled with a proper faith, you might as well be undergoing a Hindu cleasing ceremony.

If water baptism is coupled with regeneration--faith alone theology is false--regardless of how proper one believes faith must be. In fact--it just shows how improper the faith alone faith is.


Mark 16:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ****ed.