Today I Stand with the Mormons

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I don't think BJ knows what the tribulation is from a Christian point of view.

I don't think they have an end-time eschatology that has been worked through.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Apologette

I don't think they have an end-time eschatology that has been worked through.

Thinking back when I was LDS it seems like the only thing they really taught was that things will get really bad then Christ comes back. They have no idea what pre trib, mid trib, or post trib means but if we were to label them they would be post trib. I think this explains there focus on survival and food supply because they expect to go through the tribulation, even though they don't really understand what the tribulation is.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Apologette

I don't think they have an end-time eschatology that has been worked through.

I personally don't think the white horse is speaking of the "end-time." I got what you were referring to.

This is not LDS teaching or anything else. This is my own reading of Revelations and what makes sense to me and what makes sense to me is that it is not speaking of the "end-times' but rather the course of the earth as a whole---from beginning to end.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

This is not LDS teaching or anything else. This is my own reading of Revelations and what makes sense to me and what makes sense to me is that it is not speaking of the "end-times' but rather the course of the earth as a whole---from beginning to end.

So you believe that the book of Revelation is from Adam through end times? How did you come up with that?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you believe that the book of Revelation is from Adam through end times? How did you come up with that?

Not from Adam to the end times---from the beginning, before the earth until after the earth--the whole thing.

If you read it with that understanding, it makes a lot of sense.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Not from Adam to the end times---from the beginning, before the earth until after the earth--the whole thing.

If you read it with that understanding, it makes a lot of sense.

If you read the context of the p***age on the seals the LDS interpretation makes no sense at all.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I personally don't think the white horse is speaking of the "end-time." I got what you were referring to.

This is not LDS teaching or anything else. This is my own reading of Revelations and what makes sense to me and what makes sense to me is that it is not speaking of the "end-times' but rather the course of the earth as a whole---from beginning to end.

There are many different views on eschatology - amillenial, pre-trib, post-trib, etc. I don't generally argue about any of them. Apocalytical literature is full of all kinds if imagery that can be interpreted in many ways.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Apologette

There are many different views on eschatology - amillenial, pre-trib, post-trib, etc. I don't generally argue about any of them. Apocalytical literature is full of all kinds if imagery that can be interpreted in many ways.

Walter Martin had a GREAT way of holding the rapture.. He said he was post-trib and hoped he was wrong.. I guess that is my position as well.. Biggest non issue in the whole of the Church!!! IHS jim

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Walter Martin had a GREAT way of holding the rapture.. He said he was post-trib and hoped he was wrong.. I guess that is my position as well.. Biggest non issue in the whole of the Church!!! IHS jim

That would be my position as well.

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I am not even aware of the white horse prophecy other than a vague idea about it.

Where do you come up with the white horse being the anti-Christ---revelations makes it pretty clear it is Christ in Chapter 19.

The White Horse Prophecy is a fraud. It was concocted of other prophecies and was never a real or true prophecy.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

The White Horse Prophecy is a fraud. It was concocted of other prophecies and was never a real or true prophecy.

Marvin

Now if we can get you to feel the same way about the other LDS prophecies we will have made good progress.

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Now if we can get you to feel the same way about the other LDS prophecies we will have made good progress.

Are you greater than God? Because it was God who witnessed to me that Joseph Smith was a prophet. I know it and God knows it. I would offend God if I denied what I know.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Are you greater than God? Because it was God who witnessed to me that Joseph Smith was a prophet. I know it and God knows it. I would offend God if I denied what I know.

Marvin

Marvin God would never witness to you that Joseph was a prophet because he is a false prophet. Whatever gave you that witness rest ***ured that it wasn't God. Have you ever even considered that a familiar spirit tricked you?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Marvin God would never witness to you that Joseph was a prophet because he is a false prophet. Whatever gave you that witness rest ***ured that it wasn't God. Have you ever even considered that a familiar spirit tricked you?

Nothing that supernatural is required.. The heart is deceitful enough to tell us what we want to hear whether that be the truth or a lie.. In this case Marvin wanted the BofM to be true and Smith a prophet of God, so his heart gave him the feeling that it is.. Instead of looking inward to find truth we need to examine Jesus the Savior and LORD of all who will come to Him in faith.. They need to stop looking at men (prophets) and look to God, and that God is Jesus the Christ. IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Marvin God would never witness to you that Joseph was a prophet because he is a false prophet.

That is your opinon. I have a witness from God that he was a prophet of God. So, unless you are greater than God, you opinion does not mean a thing.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Whatever gave you that witness rest ***ured that it wasn't God.

Again your opinion. You are not me and have no idea what my experience was or has been. So you have no basis for your opinion.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Have you ever even considered that a familiar spirit tricked you?

Can a good tree produce bad fruit? Can a bad tree produce good fruit?

My life's experience leaves me with no room to doubt that my experience is with the true and living God that all the scriptures talk about.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

That is your opinon. I have a witness from God that he was a prophet of God. So, unless you are greater than God, you opinion does not mean a thing.

Why do you have to be greater than God in order to recognize false prophecies?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Can a good tree produce bad fruit? Can a bad tree produce good fruit?

A good tree produces good fruit and a bad tree proces bad fruit. Worshipping strange gods is about as bad a fruit as you can get. So this alone testifies to me that Joseph is a false prophet who has led you astray.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

A good tree produces good fruit and a bad tree proces bad fruit. Worshipping strange gods is about as bad a fruit as you can get. So this alone testifies to me that Joseph is a false prophet who has led you astray.

Can God take a bad tree and get producing good fruit? That seems to be the question you ignore. And can a good tree produce bad fruit?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Can God take a bad tree and get producing good fruit? That seems to be the question you ignore.

I haven't ignored this BigJ and I have answered it before but I will answer it again. A bad tree will produce bad fruit. A bad tree is someone who has not been regenerated or born again. When God regenerates a person they are now a good tree and they naturally produce good fruit.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I haven't ignored this BigJ and I have answered it before but I will answer it again. A bad tree will produce bad fruit. A bad tree is someone who has not been regenerated or born again. When God regenerates a person they are now a good tree and they naturally produce good fruit.

So, the only thing I can conclude from your comment is that God is ignoring 80% of EV teens.

That said, this is for Apologette (meaning, when I read this article, I thought of you Apologette and some of your comments and I think think you would enjoy this book and it may be worth the read.) Here is from the author:

Economically, the nation is more than $15 trillion in debt and is fast approaching $65 trillion worth of unfunded liabilities – promises the government has made regarding Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid that it can’t afford, Rosenberg says.

Further, America has lost 53 million children to abortion since 1973.

“That’s horrific in its own right – murder in my view,” Rosenberg says. “But on top of that, as if that weren’t bad enough, it’s having an economic affect that liberals didn’t intend, which is if you build a social welfare system in which young people pay the bills of older people through taxes and then you kill 53 million younger workers you are going to have a crisis.”

http://www.wnd.com/2012/06/author-wi...t-with-a-bang/

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, the only thing I can conclude from your comment is that God is ignoring 80% of EV teens.

Did you bother reading Piper's quote?

FINALLY ALIVE by John Piper
http://cdn.desiringgod.org/pdf/books_bfa/books_bfa.pdf
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-.../finally-alive

". . .In the report ***led “Born Again Christians Just as Likely to Divorce as Are Non-Christians,” Barna uses the word evangelicals interchangeably with born again and reports that:
· Only nine percent of evangelicals ***he.
· Of 12,000 teenagers who took the pledge to wait for marriage, 80 percenthad sex outside marriage in the next seven years.
· Twenty-six percent of traditional evangelicals do not think premarital sex is wrong.
· White evangelicals are more likely than Catholics and main-line Protestants to object to having black neighbors.6

In other words, the broadly defined evangelical church as a whole in America and the West in general is apparently not very unlike the world. It goes to church on Sunday and has a veneer of religion, but its religion is basically an add-on to the same way of life the world lives, not a transforming power. A Profound Mistake I want to say loud and clear that when the Barna Group uses the term born again to describe American church-goers whose lives are indistinguishable from the world, and who sin as much as the world, and sacrifice for others as little as the world, and embrace injustice as readily as the world, and covet things as greedily as the world, and enjoy God-ignoring entertainment as enthusiastically as the world—when the term born again is used to describe these professing Christians, the Barna Group is making a profound mistake. It is using the biblical term born again in a way that would make it unrecognizable by Jesus and the biblical writers. . ."

The New Testament, unlike the Barna Group, does not defile the new birth with the worldliness of unregenerate, professing Christians. For example, one of the main points of the First Epistle of John is to drive home this very truth:

· 1 John 2:29: “If you know that he is righteous, you may be
sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born
of him.”

· 1 John 3:9: “No one born of God makes a practice of sinning,
for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning
because he has been born of God.”

· 1 John 4:7: “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from
God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows
God.”

· 1 John 5:4: “Everyone who has been born of God overcomes
the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the
world—our faith.”

· 1 John 5:18: “We know that everyone who has been born of
God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God
protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.”

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Economically, the nation is more than $15 trillion in debt and is fast approaching $65 trillion worth of unfunded liabilities – promises the government has made regarding Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid that it can’t afford, Rosenberg says.

Further, America has lost 53 million children to abortion since 1973.

“That’s horrific in its own right – murder in my view,” Rosenberg says. “But on top of that, as if that weren’t bad enough, it’s having an economic affect that liberals didn’t intend, which is if you build a social welfare system in which young people pay the bills of older people through taxes and then you kill 53 million younger workers you are going to have a crisis.”

http://www.wnd.com/2012/06/author-wi...t-with-a-bang/

This is from Joel Rosenberg. I went to his national simulcast last Satuday ***led "Implosion" which lasted 3 hours which was very good. I am currently reading his new book with the same ***le. Perhaps you should read it BigJ. Maybe this will help you see your need to find the real God of the Bible.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

This is from Joel Rosenberg. I went to his national simulcast last Satuday ***led "Implosion" which lasted 3 hours which was very good. I am currently reading his new book with the same ***le. Perhaps you should read it BigJ. Maybe this will help you see your need to find the real God of the Bible.

Or maybe his discussion will help you see that God has included the U.S. in the prophecies regarding the last days and they are found in the Book of Mormon.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Or maybe his discussion will help you see that God has included the U.S. in the prophecies regarding the last days and they are found in the Book of Mormon.

His position is that the U.S. is NOT in end time prophecy. Actually it would be good for you to read his book then you might understand end time theology from the Christian perspective.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Or maybe his discussion will help you see that God has included the U.S. in the prophecies regarding the last days and they are found in the Book of Mormon.

The BofM is a Biblically based work of fiction much as "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe". The main difference between those is that the later was written with skill by a professional author.. Neither one of them was given by inspiration, neither one is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, or instruction in righteousness.. Such is reserved only for the word of God. IHS jim