End Times--Mormon style

[BigJulie]

1. Wars and rumors of wars--will happen continually up until the end-time
2. Rapture--we don't quite believe in a rapture the way EV's do.
3. Antichrist--there will be many anti-christs, but one main one prior to the second coming.
4. Antichrist desecrates the rebuilt Jewish temple--haven't heard this one. The Jewish temple has been built twice already and destroyed twice already.
5. Two witnesses (prophets) who teach around Jerusalem. Agree
6. Battle of Armegeddon. The battle between good and evil will continue and get worse and worse until the second coming.
7. Second comimg of Christ--agree.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

You are the one whom claims to have been LDS. And then you make it known that you have never heard that the seals represent a thousand yearsnofnthe earth's history. Another gap in the truth of who you really are.

Marvin

I agree---this shows his knowledge of church teachings is very limited.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Once again, you are making the mistake that what is opened in the seal happens only within the seal rather than it being another dispensation opened.

D and C 77:7
Q. What are we to understand by the seven seals with which it was sealed?
A. We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years, and the second also of the second thousand years, and so on until the seventh.

But that is what it says in this verse. Is this verse wrong?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

4. Antichrist desecrates the rebuilt Jewish temple--haven't heard this one. The Jewish temple has been built twice already and destroyed twice already.

2 Thessalonians 2

The Man of Lawlessness

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter —***erting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

2. Rapture--we don't quite believe in a rapture the way EV's do.

How is it different?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

6. Battle of Armegeddon. The battle between good and evil will continue and get worse and worse until the second coming.

So you don't believe in a literal battle just before the second coming of Christ?

[Russianwolfe]

You were the one who claimed to have never heard of this before. I knew about this the first time I read the D&C. I don't know how to understand this. But it does gives us a different idea of how to understand what the seals mean. Beyond that is only speculation.

If you never heard this discussed in Sunday School, then you never attended Gospel Doctrine, the adult Sunday School cl***. This is discussed every 4 years when the D&C is studied. So you must have missed out on this. Gives me pause.

I think the seals and the time they represent are symbolic and are not meant to be taken literally or exactly. It might be more important to see what happens at the opening of each seal than to worry what period of 1,000 years it was suppose to be.

Marvin

Originally Posted by Billyray

I was simply being honest with you Marvin-- over the many years in the church I never recall this being discussed once in Sacrament meeting, nor in Sunday School, nor in seminary.

D and C 77:7

Q. What are we to understand by the seven seals with which it was sealed?
A. We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the bfirst thousand years, and the csecond also of the second thousand years, and so on until the seventh.


Marvin perhaps you can explain how each seal lines up with each thousand year period because I can't see how this would work at all. To me this is quite odd.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

I think the seals and the time they represent are symbolic and are not meant to be taken literally or exactly. It might be more important to see what happens at the opening of each seal than to worry what period of 1,000 years it was suppose to be.

But the verse in verse 7 clearly states "We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years, and the second also of the second thousand years, and so on until the seventh.". Marvin this seems clear as written. Why are you attempting to change what is written?

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But the verse in verse 7 clearly states "We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years, and the second also of the second thousand years, and so on until the seventh.". Marvin this seems clear as written. Why are you attempting to change what is written?

Did I change or even suggest that something should be changed? I gave an interpretation. Learn the difference.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Did I change or even suggest that something should be changed? I gave an interpretation. Learn the difference.

Marvin

Marvin it says

"We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years, and the second also of the second thousand years. . ."

The first seal CONTAINS the things of the first thousand years. This couldn't be any more clear yet you are attempting to change what is said. Why don't you just admit that Joseph screwed up on this one.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

How is it different?

Well, from what I understand--you believe (correct me if I am wrong) that when Christ comes a large group of people will go meet him in the sky and then they will come down together.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you don't believe in a literal battle just before the second coming of Christ?

I believe the battle has been on-going and began before the earth began. So--what do you mean by literal battle? There is a literal battle right now between good and evil.

Rev 12:7 ¶ And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Well, from what I understand--you believe (correct me if I am wrong) that when Christ comes a large group of people will go meet him in the sky and then they will come down together.

Correct but there is an interval between going up and coming back down.

You don't believe that you will meet Christ in the air? And what is your belief about the rapture?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Marvin it says

"We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years, and the second also of the second thousand years. . ."

The first seal CONTAINS the things of the first thousand years. This couldn't be any more clear yet you are attempting to change what is said. Why don't you just admit that Joseph screwed up on this one.

Billyray, I don't think of it as literally 1000 years. I see it as a dispensation of time. Each thousand years represents a dispensation.

You are forgetting that the question is being asked about the symbollism of Revelations and is being answered in like manner.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ig.norant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Look at it this way---7 days of creation---and seven days (a thousand years a piece) of the life of the earth. This type of pattern is the norm of how God does things (at least as far as I have ever seen.)

The thousand years of rest in the millenium represent the one day of rest of creation. You see that right?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I believe the battle has been on-going and began before the earth began. So--what do you mean by literal battle?

Where people come together and fight.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Where people come together and fight.

Is that not already happening on a spiritual level already? Did this war begin long ago?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Is that not already happening on a spiritual level already? Did this war begin long ago?

I am talking about a real battle.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am talking about a real battle.

I don't think this really matters. I don't try to set God's words in the stone of my mind. The Pharisees rejected Christ because they had a picture in their minds of exactly what a Savior was supposed to look like and what He should do for them when in reality, they didn't understand it.

Likewise, when it comes to prophecies, I keep an open mind.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I don't think this really matters. I don't try to set God's words in the stone of my mind. The Pharisees rejected Christ because they had a picture in their minds of exactly what a Savior was supposed to look like and what He should do for them when in reality, they didn't understand it.

Likewise, when it comes to prophecies, I keep an open mind.

From my point of view Revelation doesn't have any real meaning to you. Would that be a fair ***essment or not?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

From my point of view Revelation doesn't have any real meaning to you. Would that be a fair ***essment or not?

No--not at all. Revelation has real meaning for me. I just don't read it as you do. And you never answered me as to whether you understand that the pattern of this world is patterned after creation where the 1000 years of peace coincide with the seventh day of creation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

No--not at all. Revelation has real meaning for me.

But it is vague and doesn't even conform to what Joseph has layed out in D and C 77. The battles are vague, the seals are vague, everything is vague and has no real meaning. At least that is the way that I see it. BTW do you think God gave us scripture that was not meant for us to understand more than you seem to understand it?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I believe the battle has been on-going and began before the earth began. So--what do you mean by literal battle? There is a literal battle right now between good and evil.

Encyclopedia of Mormonism--Armageddon

". . .Armageddon is destined to play a future role in world events. It is LDS belief that the prophecies of the scriptures will be fulfilled and that armies representing the nations of the earth will be gathered in the valley of Megiddo. It may be that given the extent of the conflict, Armageddon is a symbolic representation of worldwide conflict centered in this geographic area. The scriptures state that when the battle is at its zenith, Christ, the King of Kings, will appear on the Mount of Olives accompanied by dramatic upheavals. Subsequently, the armies spoken of by John will be destroyed, followed by Christ's millennial reign. . ."
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Armageddon

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But it is vague and doesn't even conform to what Joseph has layed out in D and C 77. The battles are vague, the seals are vague, everything is vague and has no real meaning. At least that is the way that I see it. BTW do you think God gave us scripture that was not meant for us to understand more than you seem to understand it?

...Billyray says as he ignores the question I asked regarding the 1000 years of peace being patterned after the day of rest of the creation...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

...Billyray says as he ignores the question I asked regarding the 1000 years of peace being patterned after the day of rest of the creation.)

BJ this thread is not about what I believe it is about LDS beliefs.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Encyclopedia of Mormonism--Armageddon

". . .Armageddon is destined to play a future role in world events. It is LDS belief that the prophecies of the scriptures will be fulfilled and that armies representing the nations of the earth will be gathered in the valley of Megiddo. It may be that given the extent of the conflict, Armageddon is a symbolic representation of worldwide conflict centered in this geographic area. The scriptures state that when the battle is at its zenith, Christ, the King of Kings, will appear on the Mount of Olives accompanied by dramatic upheavals. Subsequently, the armies spoken of by John will be destroyed, followed by Christ's millennial reign. . ."
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Armageddon

Ahhh, you have found some scholarly stuff about Armageddon at BYU. As noted, I like to keep my mind open about such prophecies. Find me the scripture on this one and I will agree. Otherwise, it is our best scholarly understanding (but not doctrine.)