End Times--Mormon style

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

They are two different things but Missouri is an end times theme for Mormons and this thread is about end times and we are in the LDS board so that is why I am asking you about it. Are you planning on moving to Missouri or has the LDS church dropped this concept?

The concept is that eventually, the church will gather in Missouri. How and when is unknown. I may never go there myself.

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Billyray

When are LDS planning on going to Missouri?

The only plan I know of is when God commands it.

Marvin

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

The only plan I know of is when God commands it.

Marvin

Why did God change His mind in the first place? Isn't the mormon god more powerful than a State Militia from the 1840's? Hey even the Utah National Guard is more powerful than that and God couldn't overcome the terrorism set on the LDS by that "mob"? The Commandment was to move from Ohio to Missouri but it was later changed because of the "mobs" around Jackson county.. Your God's commandments seem to be based on what outsiders do.. If he was the true God that spoke to Moses from the burning bush the Israelites would still be slaves held in bondage in Egypt.. He can't bring to p*** what is his will. He has no power to make a safe place for his people.. The LDS god is a weakling and a joke.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Why did God change His mind in the first place? Isn't the mormon god more powerful than a State Militia from the 1840's? Hey even the Utah National Guard is more powerful than that and God couldn't overcome the terrorism set on the LDS by that "mob"? The Commandment was to move from Ohio to Missouri but it was later changed because of the "mobs" around Jackson county.. Your God's commandments seem to be based on what outsiders do.. If he was the true God that spoke to Moses from the burning bush the Israelites would still be slaves held in bondage in Egypt.. He can't bring to p*** what is his will. He has no power to make a safe place for his people.. The LDS god is a weakling and a joke.. IHS jim

He did make a safe place--which is still thriving today. You seem to think that if God could keep His promises, the Jews should have inherited all of Jerusalem and have rebuilt their temple (as this is what is prophecied). Do you give God time to keep his promises to the Jews that were made in the OT and are not yet fulfilled as of yet--but for Mormons, it must occur right away?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

He did make a safe place--which is still thriving today. You seem to think that if God could keep His promises, the Jews should have inherited all of Jerusalem and have rebuilt their temple (as this is what is prophecied). Do you give God to keep his promises to the Jews that were made in the OT and are not yet fulfilled as of yet--but for Mormons, it must occur right away?

Julie He commanded that Missouri was to be the center of Zion. The 84th section of the D&C puts a time limit on the building of the New Jerusalem in Missouri. No where in the Bible is a time limit placed on the promises of God, you are way off base..

D&C 84:4-5
Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
For verily this generation shall not all p*** away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

Just so you understand what was thought that "THIS GENERATION MEANT to the early Utah Mormon leadership, those who were believed to be prophets and apostles it was taught that It was the generation that Smith had given the revelation to.

On March 10, 1861, Apostle George A. Smith stated: "Who is there that is prepared for this move back to the centre stake of Zion.... let me remind you that it is predicted that this generation shall not p*** away till a temple shall be built, and the glory of the Lord rest upon it, according to the promises" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 344).

We have confidence in returning to Jackson county. There are many still living, whose faith in returning to Jackson County, and the things that are coming, is as firm and fixed as the throne of the Almighty. God promised in the year 1832 that we should, before the generation then living had p***ed away, return and build up the City of Zion in Jackson County.

We believe in these promises as much as we believe in any promise ever uttered by the mouth of Jehovah. The Latter-day Saints just as much expect to receive a fulfillment of that promise during the generation that was in existence in 1832 as they expect that the sun will rise and set to-morrow. Why? Because God cannot lie. He will fulfill all His promises. He has spoken, it must come to p***. This is our faith (vol. 13, p. ). (Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 138, 362).

Like the JW, mormonism had to change the meaning of the prophecy when there was no fulfillment.. And yet the prophecy still stands there proving that it is a false prophecy.. But look the mormon god changed his mind and gives the reason for the change.

D&C 124:51
Therefore, for this cause have I accepted the offerings of those whom I commanded to build up a city and a house unto my name, in Jackson county, Missouri, and were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God.

The enemies of God hindered the plans and promises of God to build a temple in Far West. He had no power to keep his promise given in D&C 84.. He is a weak god.. After all the BofM teaches that God will always make a way for his children to do what he has commanded.

1 Nephi 3:7
I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

Seems as though the god of mormonism changed and became weak, not being able to stand up to the "mobs" of Missouri.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Julie He commanded that Missouri was to be the center of Zion. The 84th section of the D&C puts a time limit on the building of the New Jerusalem in Missouri. No where in the Bible is a time limit placed on the promises of God, you are way off base..

D&C 84:4-5
Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
For verily this generation shall not all p*** away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

Just so you understand what was thought that "THIS GENERATION MEANT to the early Utah Mormon leadership, those who were believed to be prophets and apostles it was taught that It was the generation that Smith had given the revelation to.

On March 10, 1861, Apostle George A. Smith stated: "Who is there that is prepared for this move back to the centre stake of Zion.... let me remind you that it is predicted that this generation shall not p*** away till a temple shall be built, and the glory of the Lord rest upon it, according to the promises" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 344).

We have confidence in returning to Jackson county. There are many still living, whose faith in returning to Jackson County, and the things that are coming, is as firm and fixed as the throne of the Almighty. God promised in the year 1832 that we should, before the generation then living had p***ed away, return and build up the City of Zion in Jackson County.

We believe in these promises as much as we believe in any promise ever uttered by the mouth of Jehovah. The Latter-day Saints just as much expect to receive a fulfillment of that promise during the generation that was in existence in 1832 as they expect that the sun will rise and set to-morrow. Why? Because God cannot lie. He will fulfill all His promises. He has spoken, it must come to p***. This is our faith (vol. 13, p. ). (Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 138, 362).

Like the JW, mormonism had to change the meaning of the prophecy when there was no fulfillment.. And yet the prophecy still stands there proving that it is a false prophecy.. But look the mormon god changed his mind and gives the reason for the change.

D&C 124:51
Therefore, for this cause have I accepted the offerings of those whom I commanded to build up a city and a house unto my name, in Jackson county, Missouri, and were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God.

The enemies of God hindered the plans and promises of God to build a temple in Far West. He had no power to keep his promise given in D&C 84.. He is a weak god.. After all the BofM teaches that God will always make a way for his children to do what he has commanded.

1 Nephi 3:7
I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

Seems as though the god of mormonism changed and became weak, not being able to stand up to the "mobs" of Missouri.. IHS jim

OUCH this one stings a bit doesn't it? Yes the BofM speaks of a powerful God who can bring His purposes to p*** no matter what is set against the endeavor. But the later god of Joseph Smith didn't have the power to make obedience to his commands possible. Why was Nephi given a way to be obedient and the LDS in Far West working on the Temple not given the same opportunity? Seems that the god of Smith changed from being the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen. To being three Gods and who can contradict it kind of gods.. Is there any wonder that the LDS were so rejected by God when they turned their backs on Him to follow the false gods of Joseph Smith? If you are going to believe in the BofM DO IT! but the BofM contradicts the teachings accepted by mormonism that it holds a completely different god(s) to be God and a completely different gospel to be the Gospel.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Really? Individual mormons have no way to defend this part of their scripture? They can accept a doctrine that allows God to break His promises? Tell me please if that is an attribute of God what stop Him from changing the requirements for salvation and leave you cut off? There would be none.. And yet God to;d the Prophet that He doesn't chance for that Israel (And that would extend to all who are adopted into Israel) are not consumed (Mal 3:6) IHS jim

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Actually I just want you to explain it to me and thus far you seem to be having some difficutly. But that aside D and C 77 says "We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years"

Start from scratch if you need to and tell me about the first seal, who is the rider--which I ***ume you will still say Christ-- and what exactly does Christ do in this first thousand years, and where does Christ go after the thousand years since according to D and C all of that seal in contained in the first thousand years.

Sorry, I just had to respond to this, I'm certainly no expert, but this the best I've been able to understand so far.

----the first seal represents the first 1,000 years from the time Adam & Eve left the Garden. The rider represents a righteous figure from that time. This would either be Adam or Enoch. I think Enoch, but that's what I read into it.

----the second seal represents the second 1,000 year period - this would encomp*** the time of Noah, and could represent the war and bloodshed and the extreme wickedness of man during this time, the great sword symbolic of terrible destruction. Both temporal and spiritual.

----the third seal represents the next 1,000 year period - this would be during the time of Moses and Abraham and the years of captivity in Egypt for the children of Israel. The black could represent evil, spiritual darkness, the depression that accompanies famine, as this was a time of great famine for mankind. Again symbolic of earthly and spiritual famine.

----the fourth seal represents the next 1,000 years leading up to the birth of Christ (these are estimated dates of course because nobody truly knows when Adam & Eve left the Garden, and no man knows the day He comes again) this horse is pale, possibly representing that the quality of life and spiritual health for those who have chosen the path of wickedness has been drained by the wickedness from the previous horsemen. Israel divided by Civil War, ***yria carries away the ten tribes, Babylonians conquer Jerusalem, Romans become rulers of the Holy Land. You would have to know since the horsemen are symbolic figures that the death mentioned is probably mostly symbolic as well. As in spiritual death, the product of turning away from the Lord. Unless you truly believe this hasn't happened yet, and that it is to be taken quite literal meaning a fourth of the population of earth will be literally wiped off the face of the earth, and then another third will be decimated again as described in Chapter 9 not long after? I mean, that's up to you to interpret it that way. But in this case, it is possible that the "fourth" mentioned in this verse means the "death" (spiritual & temporal) will be great, but perhaps not as great at the "third" that will happen later, mentioned in Chapter 9. Now, another possibility could mean to be literal "And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." Could this not also possibly mean the power to destroy was given to a fourth part of the earth, but not necessarily that a fourth of the earth was destroyed due to this power? Either way, my personal opinion leans toward the significance of the symbolism of the fourth (four representing mankind) That's the beauty of symbolism.

As you see, the first four seals are broken rather quickly (meaning they're almost mentioned as a footnote- they only take up a few verses) the fifth seal gets a little more explained, then the entire remainder of Revelation goes into great detail of the sixth and seventh seals. That is because those seals had not come to p*** at the time John received the revelations, but they were included in the "things to come" because they were part of the entire story-from beginning to end, Alpha to Omega. The book being Lord's plan for mankind that was presented to the Savior and that only He could bring to p***. The Savior existed along side the Father before He gained a mortal body, He is and always has been involved in all the events of this world.

But you can't be entirely literal when it suits you when there is obvious symbolism thus far (lambs, horses, beasts) but oh no, THAT part is literal. The book is packed with symbolism.

Now, of course there is no EXACT interpretation....we don't have all the answers, we never claimed to. We actually know there is much we don't know. Now, you may not like this interpretation of Revelation, but it's not any more illogical than any of the MANY other interpretations of the book. You I'm sure are fully aware there are almost as many interpretations as their are Christian sects. And you don't have to believe it either. I'm not sure of the point of this forum....is it to completely dissect the LDS religion? I'm trying to understand the purpose because anyone can make any religion look foolish if they don't believe in the precepts and tenets. Unless you are sincerely curious, but you seem a little argumentative for that to be the case. You seem to be out to tear down someone else's beliefs, why is that?

Now since you seem so adamant about there being specificity in these horsemen...what are the exact details of the horsemen to you, according to you it needs to be very sure an detailed so I'm interested to hear it.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by James Banta

You do know that the LDS see the seven seal as seven thousand years of God's dealing with men on the earth? Basically the history of man.. I have never seen the results if the seals as described in the Bible occurring in 1,000 year increments but the LDS don't see the seals as end time process.. Their interpretation is quite different than Christian teachings on almost the whole of the Revelation.. IHS jim

As far as I was led to believe, Preterist and Historist interpretations believe the horsemen have also come and gone...that they were all part of events that happened around 100 AD. So, not the only religion that doesn't see the first four seals as end time revelation.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

As far as I was led to believe, Preterist and Historist interpretations believe the horsemen have also come and gone...that they were all part of events that happened around 100 AD. So, not the only religion that doesn't see the first four seals as end time revelation.

I have yet to hear any person teach anything I felt was even slightly close to right.....

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Billyray

This is a thread to tell me what you believe. Tell me what you really believe about Armegeddon.

Oh for Heavens Sake, it's a real battle. Sheez...I'm sure there are going to be plenty of other factors involved as well. But my heck, the battle of Armegeddon will take place at Meggido. I think that's fairly specific...doesn't everyone believe that, it seems obvious from the scriptures right? Unless I'm missing something, why wouldn't it?