I am looking at a study. Statistically, 80% of EV teens fornicate. So, now you state some are saved and some aren't. Of the ones who are saved--how come good works are not just naturally flowing from them? Why isn't the Holy Ghost guiding them as you claim will happen?Originally Posted by Billyray
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
You are asking me a specific. How on earth can I give you a specific answer from a generic group of people?
It would be no different that me saying that 100% of mormons sin so tell me which ones will be exalted.
Because you are making the claim that those who are born again will have good works naturally flow from them. So, you make a generic claim (that I don't think is backed by the scriptures) and I give you a generic example. Now you want to back away from your original claims. It is okay Billyray, I agree, they don't hold up.
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Those who are born again are drastically changed and their live gets progressively more and more Christlike. This doesn't mean that they never sin which is what I think that you are falsely assuming.
What doesn't hold up?
To say that goodness naturally flows from those who are born again on one hand and then stating that some of the fornicators are born again on the other.
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
You have to give me a specific example. Who is to say that they had this sin were convicted of it and repented which would be consistent with a true born again believer verses a non born again person who would persist in his or her sin. You give a generic study but you don't give a specific example so there is no way that I could tell.
Billyray, you have claimed that the born again believer naturally has good flow from them. You have also claimed that some of these 80% of fornicators are born again. You also post Piper who states that those who state that they are born again are not if they are following the world.
Now, your beliefs can't take these stats head on and so you want to hide claiming i.gnorance to more of the specifics.
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
A born again believe is radically transformed when they are regenerated and progressively get more and more Christlike over time. This doesn't mean that they never sin. You have to look at the individual, where they started and the progress that they have made. Thus far you haven't given me any specifics so it is impossible to tell. But if someones live is unchanged and they live life the rest of the world and Piper has said then it is unlikely that they are born again.
Okay, the stats that Piper gave said that 80% of teens who took a virginity pledge later went on to fornicate. So--you have this group of professed believers who then LATER fornicate. How is that getting more and more like Christ over time? Why didn't the Holy Ghost direct them away from fornicating?
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
There is no way I can make generalizatons about a anonymous group. Just like you can't with a generalization about LDS. For example 100% LDS sin so tell me which one will be exalted.
What I can tell you and what Piper has said in the quotes that I provided is that a lot of people who claim to be born again are not born again. Just because someone claims it does not make it so.
I can tell you by exactly what the scriptures say. Those who will be exalted are the ones who love God with all of the heart, might, mind and strength and follow Him (through repentence and santification) until the end of their days. Easy enough.
So, can you tell me in a generalized way if those who are fornicating who are knowledgable of Christ and profess to believe in Him are naturally having good works flow from them and are being directed by the Holy Ghost?
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
So a sinner who remains a sinner can be exalted. Right?
Christ has taught us how to repent and be purified.
With these stats, I am not talking about those who are post-sin--I am talking about those in sin--those 80% who profess a belief in Christ and yet go on to fornicate and whom you claim (in that state) are born again. Or are you now qualifying that some of them may repent AFTER their fornication and that is how you know they are born again?
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Do I think that a person who is born again can sin? Yes they can. But there is a difference between the person who is born again and those who are not in that the person who is born again is convicted of their sin, they feel sorry for their sin, they change course and ask God for forgiveness. And over time they are more and more Christlike.
But you didn't answer my question. Those who are exalted are still sinning. Right?
Those who are exalted are not fornicating Billyray or committing adultery. They will be saved in a lessor kingdom if they believe in Christ.
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
I have told you what I believe over and over again. Here it is again in case you missed it the first or second or hundreth time. Those who are born again are radically changed from where they were prior to being regenerated. Each person starts at a diffreent starting point. Over time their lives become more and more Christlike.
What part of my statement do you have a question about?
So---lets say that you have a teenage daughter. At the age of twelve, she is pure and innocent. Then---about the age of 16--she starts dating. There is peer pressure from her boyfriend to sleep with him. What do you tell her to do? Do you tell her that the good will just naturally flow from her and if she fornicates--it is okay because she will get better over time? Or do you tell her that doing what is right can be difficult at times and doing the right thing is not always the easiest thing?
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
What about all of the other sins? You sure seem to be caught up in this specific sin? Why is that?
Don't you think that they already know that it is wrong to commit a sin?
Just like you when you commit a sin you knew that it was wrong and you did it anyway. Why?
Will you please explain the difference between those who place their faith in Christ and those who obey Christ, and follow Him?
Are you asking what is the difference between salvation by faith and salvation by works?
Originally Posted by dberrie2000
Will you please explain the difference between those who place their faith in Christ and those who obey Christ, and follow Him?
Do you consider God giving His grace to those who obey Christ and follow Him salvation by works?
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