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Thread: Demon Possession

  1. #1
    contraeverything
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    I have been reading "The Kingdom of the Occult," and have read Dr. Koch's books in the past. In Martin's "Kingdom" book, there is a chart of all of the p***ages in the gospels which deal with exorcisms in the ministry of Jesus.

    Martin very obviously believes that the primary "gate" for demon possession is some sort of contact with the occult. He refers to experimentations with Ouija boards, heavy metal, witchcraft, horoscopes, and dozens of other occult contacts as being the "cause" (my word) of demon possession in the chapters that I have read.

    However, I have a situation going on near me in which I am certain that several members of a family are demon possessed, but there seems to be no known evidence of direct contact with the occult. Rather, the issue seems to be that an unsubmissive wife has become possessed by her rejection of her husband's authority, and each of the women in the family are experiencing spiritual oppression, if not possession, as they struggle with the replication of the mother's character in themselves.

    Briefly, the evidence of possession includes: blasphemy, active disobedience coupled with religion, inability to make sense of Biblical principles, discomfort around discussions of Christ and the Bible, incredible spiritual power (the mother/grandmother/matriarch, whom I maintain is demon possessed, has, despite being wholly devoid of charm or personality, somehow convinced several members of her family and church - persons who have credible professions of faith - to become involved in a crime with her, and some have been so convicted in court!), uncleanness, and inexplicable fear of the Bible and truth. Again, this is a brief sketch.

    In reading through the p***ages in the table in "Kingdom" (pp. 541-542), I made a chart myself to record the results. Column 1 is the p***age, Column 2 is the "evidence" of possession, Column 3 is the "cause" of possession, and Column 4 is the "resolution" of the possession. Obviously, Column 3 is the least populated by data.

    And at no point is "contact with the occult" one of the causes mentioned in the gospels. However, I added a couple of p***ages from Acts which did mention contact with the occult for a more complete chart.

    However, the following "causes" I did discover in the gospels: not being with Christ (Matt 12:30), sin & blasphemy (Matt. 12:31-32), and being unregenerate (Matt. 12:43-45). It seems to me that these "causes" could each be cl***ified under one umbrella cause - that of rebellion. For rebellion is certainly not taking Christ's side of an issue, both sin and blasphemy are acts of rebellion, and remaining unregenerate, I suppose, is the ultimate act of rebellion.

    I am proposing that the issue with demon possession, based upon my initial investigation of the scriptures here, is not contact with the occult, but rather rebellion against God. Rebellion - as in the feminist grandmother mentioned above - places one at once in the place of REJECTING God's authority and ACCEPTING evil (or, as one might say, a contrary, ungodly authority) instead. Certainly, "contact with the occult" is a form of rebellion, but it would only be a subset of rebellion, the actual cause, and not the cause itself.

    I simply find a paucity of indications that "contact with the occult" is widespread enough among the incredible number of people who were possessed in the Bible to be able to intellectually isolate it as THE cause of possession. Also, I have questions about the possession of children (not wholly infrequent in the gospel p***ages Martin lists) and the likelihood that children could choose to participate in occultic matters. Maybe it is just me.

    However, I would love to get some feedback on this. I am not saying Martin is "wrong" per se, and his ***ertion is certainly true as far as it goes, but I simply wonder if it goes far enough.

    Or perhaps I am missing a crucial aspect of his argument?

    Any help here?
    Last edited by contraeverything; 01-07-2009 at 08:44 PM. Reason: clarification

  2. #2
    IncitingRiots
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    I have rejected god ever since I was a young child. You would think that I would have been vome under demoic possesion by now. Then again, maybe there is no such things as demons....

  3. #3
    Senior Member MacG's Avatar
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    Hey Contra,

    I remember listening to WM on the radio and if memory serves he thought well of Kurt Koch. I to have read several of Dr. Koch's books. He had the opinion that the "door" to possesion can be in some cases ancestral I am not sure about Martin's take. Occaisonally WM tapes on the occult are posted to listen to online and they are helpful.

    A word of caution (since I do not know you I did not want to let this go unsaid). Kurt Koch shared a case study where a Christian took up a room across from a Temple of some sort to pray against the spirts there. He went insane. It is never the case that any exorcism that was done by the Apostles or Jesus Himself was sought out by them. The possesed found their way to them. The one that I can think of that was attempted in Acts that turned out pretty bad was attempted by a non believer ending with seven brothers getting beaten badly. Jesus also cautioned about deliveing a possesed person who was not ready for the cast out demon will get seven other spirits and re-enter them so their condition was worse than before. I had a discussion with a local pastor (with experience in this area) about this and he concurs. This pastor said that people came to him expressing concern that they may be possessed and scheduled a counselling sesson to investigate. It was not his place to go to them and say that he thought that they were possesed. So do not go looking for it, the results can be bad for all involved. In particuar if they are not possesed.

    This is another key point that Dr. Koch discussed: Check for all organic and "psychic" causes. Psychic here refers to mental causes. He was careful to reserve possession as a cause for symptoms as a last possible cause and did not seek it out.

    This is nothing to take lightly, do not over step your bounds and you are showing some wisdom asking for much counsel.

    Blessings,

    MacG

  4. #4
    contraeverything
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    MacG:

    I do not consider myself to be an "exorcist," and am seeking nothing whatsoever out. I simply know of this situation that is going on near to me and reading Martin's "Occult" kind of spurred some thought. My intent is really not to prepare to be an exorcist, it is really to simply have some folks who might know Martin's writings better than I, or might have a better understanding of possession than I from experience, evaluate my theory (that I believe to be Biblical, at least till shown otherwise) that willful separation from God's will, i.e., rebellion, is a more likely explanation of demon possession than is some sort of formalized indulgence in tarot cards, psychics, witchcraft, or what have you.

    Again, I'm not denying that indulgence in such occult practices would lead to demon possession, but I think I am maintaining that much more than mere indulgence in occultism could lead to possession. In the case of the family to which I refer in the original post, the grandmother's lifetime of personal rebellion against her husband, against God, and willful embrace of feminism seems to have led to some awful consequences throughout her family. In that sense, I would certainly agree that it appears that possession/oppression might be "generational," whether by contact or influence, I don't know.

    My interest in the situation that I relate above is, at this point, far more theoretical than practical. As you say, the grandmother has not asked for help as of this moment. But I would love to see if someone might shed some light on the ***ertions that I make above from a Biblical context.

    Thanks again for your kind reply.

  5. #5
    contraeverything
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    Quote Originally Posted by IncitingRiots View Post
    I have rejected god ever since I was a young child. You would think that I would have been vome under demoic possesion by now. Then again, maybe there is no such things as demons....
    Quote Originally Posted by TheApostleJohn
    And after the sop Satan entered into him (Judas). John 13:27
    I wonder if Judas realized he was possessed?

    Perhaps he merely believed himself to be acting in his own self-interest. Thirty pieces of silver, of course, could have been lifechanging for a guy who had been essentially homeless for a period of time. Perhaps he considered what he was doing to be his own personal social statement, his own rebellion, his own idea, justified, of course, because of the way religious folk had acted toward him.

    Nonetheless, it was objectively true that "Satan entered into him"....
    Last edited by contraeverything; 01-08-2009 at 09:49 AM. Reason: added dropped infinitive

  6. #6
    Trinity
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    There is many things to consider before attesting a possession by one or many demons.

    1) Statistically, one person on five is psychologically sick. The unbalanced biochemical of the brain is the most important reason. I have a good friend who is schizophrenic.
    2) Some people also has a distortion of their personality because of a very bad education, the usage of drugs and alcohol, stress, rape, post trauma syndrome, etc.
    3) Authentic exorcists are extremely rare.
    4) The vast majority of the diseases have natural causes (genetic, virus, bacteria, injuries and accidents, malnutrition, etc).
    5) Some people are thinking that they are possessed because of the autosuggestion and the animal magnetism (mesmerism). They compulsively believe that they have a demon but they are wrong (an obsession).

    Trinity

  7. #7
    contraeverything
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    There is many things to consider before attesting a possession by one or many demons.
    As I said above, I am not really interested in the practical aspect of diagnosing a person as either demon-possessed or not, though in the particular instance that I refer to, I have absolute certainty for reasons that I will not go into.

    My point was to solicit discussion of what I take to be Walter Martin's contention that possession is a phenomenon largely linked to occult practices. Again, I find this to be a position not backed up by the Biblical data, but would like some input on it... I may or may not be right (as to my examination of the Biblical data) and it may be that I have misunderstood Martin's contention in the "Occult" book (in which case, I would love someone to show where he discusses other possibilities, particularly if he has indicated that a generic at***ude of rebellion, as I have postulated above, might be a contributing factor).

  8. #8
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by contraeverything View Post
    My point was to solicit discussion of what I take to be Walter Martin's contention that possession is a phenomenon largely linked to occult practices. Again, I find this to be a position not backed up by the Biblical data, but would like some input on it...
    Some deep rooted sins can become causes. I agree with you that the occult practices are not the only causes. Sometimes this can be allowed by God himself.

    Trinity

  9. #9
    sayso
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    Quote Originally Posted by contraeverything View Post

    However, the following "causes" I did discover in the gospels: not being with Christ (Matt 12:30), sin & blasphemy (Matt. 12:31-32), and being unregenerate (Matt. 12:43-45). It seems to me that these "causes" could each be cl***ified under one umbrella cause - that of rebellion. For rebellion is certainly not taking Christ's side of an issue, both sin and blasphemy are acts of rebellion, and remaining unregenerate, I suppose, is the ultimate act of rebellion.

    I am proposing that the issue with demon possession, based upon my initial investigation of the scriptures here, is not contact with the occult, but rather rebellion against God. Rebellion - as in the feminist grandmother mentioned above - places one at once in the place of REJECTING God's authority and ACCEPTING evil (or, as one might say, a contrary, ungodly authority) instead. Certainly, "contact with the occult" is a form of rebellion, but it would only be a subset of rebellion, the actual cause, and not the cause itself.

    I simply find a paucity of indications that "contact with the occult" is widespread enough among the incredible number of people who were possessed in the Bible to be able to intellectually isolate it as THE cause of possession. Also, I have questions about the possession of children (not wholly infrequent in the gospel p***ages Martin lists) and the likelihood that children could choose to participate in occultic matters. Maybe it is just me.

    However, I would love to get some feedback on this. I am not saying Martin is "wrong" per se, and his ***ertion is certainly true as far as it goes, but I simply wonder if it goes far enough.

    Or perhaps I am missing a crucial aspect of his argument?

    Any help here?
    1 Samuel 15:23
    For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as idolatry and teraphim (household good luck images). Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, He also has rejected you from being king.

    2 Thessalonians 2:7
    For the mystery of lawlessness (that hidden principle of rebellion against cons***uted authority) is already at work in the world, [but it is] restrained only until he who restrains is taken out of the way.


    Scripture says that rebellion is "as" the sin of witchcraft. This was written about King Saul. I think that rebellion is seen as seeking direction from someone(in Saul's case himself) other than God and thus rejecting God's rule and authority.

    Isn't that what someone who is involved in these occult practices does? They seek something or someone other than God for advice, counsel or direction and in so doing reject God's counsel (word)?

    Apparently the propensity to turn to the occult was already present in Saul because he later does exactly that.

    1 Samuel 28:7
    Then Saul said to his servants, Find me a woman who is a medium [between the living and the dead], that I may go and inquire of her. His servants said, Behold, there is a woman who is a medium at Endor.


    So could we say that anyone who is rebelling against God is actually involved in witchcraft? That might depend on what you believe that an act of rebellion is or is not.

  10. #10
    contraeverything
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayso View Post
    1 Samuel 15:23
    For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as idolatry and teraphim (household good luck images). Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, He also has rejected you from being king.

    2 Thessalonians 2:7
    For the mystery of lawlessness (that hidden principle of rebellion against cons***uted authority) is already at work in the world, [but it is] restrained only until he who restrains is taken out of the way.


    Scripture says that rebellion is "as" the sin of witchcraft. This was written about King Saul. I think that rebellion is seen as seeking direction from someone(in Saul's case himself) other than God and thus rejecting God's rule and authority.

    Isn't that what someone who is involved in these occult practices does? They seek something or someone other than God for advice, counsel or direction and in so doing reject God's counsel (word)?

    Apparently the propensity to turn to the occult was already present in Saul because he later does exactly that.

    1 Samuel 28:7
    Then Saul said to his servants, Find me a woman who is a medium [between the living and the dead], that I may go and inquire of her. His servants said, Behold, there is a woman who is a medium at Endor.


    So could we say that anyone who is rebelling against God is actually involved in witchcraft? That might depend on what you believe that an act of rebellion is or is not.

    A truly excellent thought. I can't believe I didn't think of it!!!

    I take it, then, that you would be in favor of, on Biblical grounds, expanding our theoretical basis for demon possession beyond mere dalliances in what is formally recognized as "the occult?"

  11. #11
    sayso
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    Quote Originally Posted by contraeverything View Post
    A truly excellent thought. I can't believe I didn't think of it!!!

    I take it, then, that you would be in favor of, on Biblical grounds, expanding our theoretical basis for demon possession beyond mere dalliances in what is formally recognized as "the occult?"

    Is witchcraft a part of "the occult"?

    If it is, and rebellion is as witchcraft, then can we say that rebellion is a part of "the occult"?

  12. #12
    contraeverything
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayso View Post
    Is witchcraft a part of "the occult"?

    If it is, and rebellion is as witchcraft, then can we say that rebellion is a part of "the occult"?
    I think my key words were "formally recognized."

    I agree, based on I Sam. 15, rebellion is to be equated with occultism.

    But I don't get the idea that Martin, in "Kingdom of the Occult," sees it that way, and I certainly doubt the average person does.

    Certainly my 16-year old daughter doesn't.

    While it is certainly possible to postulate that all occultism is ultimately rebellion, and equally possible (and I think inarguably certain) to postulate that the motivation behind almost all occultism is rebellion, my question is whether Martin's approach is a smidgen simplistic - i.e., if I can manage to stay away from Dungeons & Dragons I can avoid demon possession.

    I would postulate that embracing feminism or any of a number of other -isms, or merely living a life of chronic, unrepentant, and exhorbitant disregard for the truth would be enough to open one up to demon possession, based on the very verses that Martin lists in his table, cited above.

  13. #13
    Bob Carabbio
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    OF the four folks that I've knows who were delivered from demonization, NONE of them had direct "occult connections" (the most recent one was our pastor at DeSoto AOG for a couple of years).

    Derek Prince lists quite a few "sources" from which Demonization (there's no such thing as "Demon possession" - it's an unfortunate translation in the KJV) can spring including traumatic experiences and extreme health issues.

  14. #14
    Senior Member MacG's Avatar
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    Walter Martin summarily dismissed Derek Prince because of DP's position of Christians being possesed. He put them in the same category of Charles and Myrtle Fillmore (perhaps Jill can verify). I see you used the term demonized I know there is a difference. However I do not believe that the Bible shows that believer's filled and sealed with the Holy Spirit can be possesed. Now can they manifest in some other way than controlling the individual, sure but not control. It has been a long time since I have dealt with this topic so I am open to discussion.

    Blessings,

    MacG

  15. #15
    sayso
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    I don't believe that a Christian can be "possessed", meaning "taken over completely" by a demon.

    However, I do believe that Christians can be put into bondage.

    Take for instance the story of ***. We all know that *** was someone who feared God and stayed away from evil, right?

    *** 1

    1 THERE WAS a man in the land of Uz whose name was ***; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who [reverently] feared God and abstained from and shunned evil [because it was wrong].

    Now watch what happens.


    6 Now there was a day when the sons (the angels) of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan (the adversary and accuser) also came among them.

    7 And the Lord said to Satan, From where did you come? Then Satan answered the Lord, From going to and fro on the earth and from walking up and down on it.

    8 And the Lord said to Satan, Have you considered My servant ***, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who [reverently] fears God and abstains from and shuns evil [because it is wrong]?

    9 Then Satan answered the Lord, Does *** [reverently] fear God for nothing?

    10 Have You not put a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have conferred prosperity and happiness upon him in the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.

    11 But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has, and he will curse You to Your face.

    12 And the Lord said to Satan (the adversary and the accuser), Behold, all that he has is in your power, only upon the man himself put not forth your hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.


    God actually gives Satan the right to take everything that *** has.


    As the story progresses Satan is given even more power over *** such as his health but not his life.

    *** 42

    10 And the Lord turned the captivity of *** and restored his fortunes, when he prayed for his friends; also the Lord gave *** twice as much as he had before.

    This story has been presented to me most times in one of these two ways.

    1. All this happened to *** because he was fearful and that was sin. Later God restored all *** had (his riches).

    2. God was proving to Satan that *** wouldn't turn away and curse Him no matter what happened.

    First let me point out that power over *** was given to Satan by God for His own purposes. Then at the end of the story ***'s "captivity" or bondage was ended.

    The thing that bothered me the most about this story is the why of it. Why would God allow His worst enemy to take His righteous servant into bondage? The two reasons above didn't make sense to me. I struggled to know the God who would do this to someone He loves.


    It was for ***'s benefit and not because God had anything to prove to Satan. It was also not because *** sinned through fear.

    It was because *** needed to know the God he had been worshipping.

  16. #16
    Bob Carabbio
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    The bottom line is that demonic en***ies HAVE access to our minds, and we CAN agree with them, make give "place" to them (which Paul warns about), and become trapped by them - AS Christians.

    The whole "can a Christian be demonized" arguement is essentially moot. It HAppens, and the question is what we should DO about it. Whether or not Martin liked Prince is unimportant to me one way or another. Martin had his own agenda to pursue, and did so with some accuracy.

  17. #17
    sayso
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carabbio View Post
    The bottom line is that demonic en***ies HAVE access to our minds, and we CAN agree with them, make give "place" to them (which Paul warns about), and become trapped by them - AS Christians.

    The whole "can a Christian be demonized" arguement is essentially moot. It HAppens, and the question is what we should DO about it. Whether or not Martin liked Prince is unimportant to me one way or another. Martin had his own agenda to pursue, and did so with some accuracy.

    What does the Bible say that we should do about it?

    Demon har***ment, bondage, and/or possession is a topic that most church folks are uncomfortable even talking about let alone doing anything about.

  18. #18
    Heart2Heart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    There is many things to consider before attesting a possession by one or many demons.

    1) Statistically, one person on five is psychologically sick. The unbalanced biochemical of the brain is the most important reason. I have a good friend who is schizophrenic.
    2) Some people also has a distortion of their personality because of a very bad education, the usage of drugs and alcohol, stress, rape, post trauma syndrome, etc.
    3) Authentic exorcists are extremely rare.
    4) The vast majority of the diseases have natural causes (genetic, virus, bacteria, injuries and accidents, malnutrition, etc).
    5) Some people are thinking that they are possessed because of the autosuggestion and the animal magnetism (mesmerism). They compulsively believe that they have a demon but they are wrong (an obsession).

    Trinity
    How does a person get a very bad education? Or, could you clarify what you mean by, "very bad education?" Lastly, from what source did you get the list?

    Blessings....

  19. #19
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart2Heart View Post
    How does a person get a very bad education?
    Bad parents.

    Or, could you clarify what you mean by, "very bad education?"
    Bad parents, and bad friends.

    Lastly, from what source did you get the list?
    From my experience.

    Some people only need to overcome from psychological injuries. We cannot say that they are possessed.

    Interview With an Exorcist: An Insider's Look at the Devil, Demonic Possession, and the Path to Deliverance
    by Jose Antonio Fortea
    http://www.amazon.com/Interview-Exor...2480631&sr=1-1

    Biography of Jose Antonio Fortea:
    "José Antonio Fortea Cucurull (born in Barbastro, Spain, 1968), priest and specialized theologian in Demonology. He studied Theology for his priesthood in the University of Navarre. He received the degree of licentiate (licenza) in the field of History of the Church at the faculty of Theology of Comillas. In 1998 he defended his thesis (tesina) en***led Exorcism in the Present Age under the direction of the Secretary of the Commission for the Doctrine of the Faith of the Spain Conference of Catholic Bishops."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Antonio_Fortea

    The official website:
    http://www.fortea.us/english/index.htm

    Trinity
    Last edited by Trinity; 01-20-2009 at 02:01 PM.

  20. #20
    Brad Smith
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    In talking with other paranormal investigators or reading their accounts, actual "demonic" possessions are rare; the numbers of actual cases range from one to three percent of cases are real.

    "Negative" infestations are more common, where investigators find locations with activity created by some en***y or en***ies. That being said, the team that I belong to have only run across infestations only a few times.

    In those cases, we refer the clients to clergy or other paranormal investigators who have more experience in that sort of thing.

  21. #21
    Heart2Heart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Smith View Post
    In talking with other paranormal investigators or reading their accounts, actual "demonic" possessions are rare; the numbers of actual cases range from one to three percent of cases are real.

    "Negative" infestations are more common, where investigators find locations with activity created by some en***y or en***ies. That being said, the team that I belong to have only run across infestations only a few times.

    In those cases, we refer the clients to clergy or other paranormal investigators who have more experience in that sort of thing.
    I've briefly watched a paranormal show on TV. The show seemed scary, so I flipped the channel quickly. Since denomic possession cases are rare, does this mean some people pretend that they are demonized to get attention?

  22. #22
    Brad Smith
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    Not all the time.

    Most of the time, it's mental illness of some sort. During our prelim investigations, as the clients are interviewed, we ask them questions about mental health history, meds and the like.


  23. #23
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Smith View Post
    Not all the time.

    Most of the time, it's mental illness of some sort. During our prelim investigations, as the clients are interviewed, we ask them questions about mental health history, meds and the like.

    You know what you are talking about. This is nice to see you here with us. Welcome among us.

    Trinity

  24. #24
    Heart2Heart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Smith View Post
    Not all the time.

    Most of the time, it's mental illness of some sort. During our prelim investigations, as the clients are interviewed, we ask them questions about mental health history, meds and the like.

    What are the factors you realize the person is not demon possessed, but instead has a mental illness? I watched for a short time on youtube video about a person who was demon possessed. The person looked like she was demon possessed not mental illness.

  25. #25
    Brad Smith
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    Good question.

    Negative activity can be detected by "hot spots."

    If we have a case concerning an intelligent haunting and the en***y wishes to interact with us, it needs energy to do so.

    So, it drains energy from ambient air, creating "cold spots."

    Negative en***ies can do the same thing, but when they are active or attempt to manifest themselves, temperature spikes or hot spots can be detected.

    We also look for "aggressive" behavior, such as people being scratched, kicked, hit and so on. We also look for poltergeist activity and so on.

    It helps, too, that members of the team have "day ***s" that require them to be mental health counselors and social workers.

    The team I belong to has been around for nearly 8 or 9 years; we've encountered negative infestations only three times, out of the hundreds of cases we've handled.

    Again, most "possessions" are caused by untreated mental illness and even people who are acting out, wanting attention.

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