Which Christianity?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Let us keep in mind the context as to what I have said. Remember, that I do not believe that Mormons are Christians.

Could you explain to us if you are referring to the "Christianity" the faith alone preach--that is--salvation through a faith without works--or the true Christianity of the Biblical text?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Could you explain to us if you are referring to the "Christianity" the faith alone preach--that is--salvation through a faith without works--or the true Christianity of the Biblical text?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

See what I mean. You come over here to WM (what's left of it, that is) and all you see is this troll's attacks on sola fide. His purpose in life is to attack the grace earned by Christ on the Cross of Calvary. Jill would be wise to ban this guy who is using this site to promote evil.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostCould you explain to us if you are referring to the "Christianity" the faith alone preach--that is--salvation through a faith without works--or the true Christianity of the Biblical text?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Originally Posted by Apologette

See what I mean. You come over here to WM (what's left of it, that is) and all you see is this troll's attacks on sola fide.

The attack on faith alone theology does not seem to be limited to my point of view:

James 2:24---King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only

Why don't you use the Bible? That is the source of your theological truths? Yet--there is very little use of the Bible by you. Why?

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Could you explain for us how you relate being judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation--to faith alone theology?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Could you explain to us if you are referring to the "Christianity" the faith alone preach--that is--salvation through a faith without works--or the true Christianity of the Biblical text?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Originally Posted by Apologette

See what I mean. You come over here to WM (what's left of it, that is) and all you see is this troll's attacks on sola fide. His purpose in life is to attack the grace earned by Christ on the Cross of Calvary. Jill would be wise to ban this guy who is using this site to promote evil.

The attack on faith alone theology does not seem to be limited to my point of view:

James 2:24---King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only

Why don't you use the Bible? That is the source of your theological truths? Yet--there is very little use of the Bible by you. Why?

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Could you explain for us how you relate being judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation--to faith alone theology?

Bump for Apologette

[Saxon]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

How are you using that scripture to cover and cancel out what the Savior testified to, that is--all of mankind will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation--after death?

John 5:28-29--King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

No one is arguing that we are saved by grace--only that grace is extended to those who obey Christ:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And walk in His light:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Could you quote us a scripture where God extends His grace of eternal life to those who disobey Him?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Romans 2:5-11--King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 4:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

[Saxon]

You continually ignore Ephesians 2:8 to 10 that clearly states that salvation is a gift of God and not of works so you can insert scripture that is dealing with something altogether different and claim that it promotes a salvation that is earned by works. It is about time that you explained why you insist on ignoring Ephesians 2:8 to 10. I believe that you don't believe it is true.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Christian]

Jesus built only ONE CHURCH. Joey smith and his INVENTED RELIGION was never a part of it. Joey hadn't even INVENTED his religion yet.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

You continually ignore Ephesians 2:8 to 10 that clearly states that salvation is a gift of God and not of works

Not of faith either--but by God's grace. How does that somehow cancel and cover the fact faith is necessary for salvation--ad not dead faith:

James 2:20--King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

One could make the point that the wire conduit that connects to the light is not what illuminates it--but that does not mean the illumination will take place without the conduit.

As the scriptures teach--grace p***es through faith for salvation--just as electricity p***es through the conduit for illumination:

Ephesians 2:8 --For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

As the scriptures also teach--all are judged in accordance with what one does with the gifts--and that for the joy of thy lord--or outer darkness:

Matthew 25:14-30----King James Version (KJV)
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Some points here:

1) It was His servants the Lord gave the gifts to--not the other way around.

2) All were judged according to what they did with the gifts.

3) The ones who magnified their gifts received the joy of thy lord--the ones who did not--outer darkness.

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Saxon]

Faith does not save anyone! it Is a Gift not of works. You continually ignore Ephesians 2:8 to 10 that clearly states that salvation is a gift of God and not of works. All the verses that you quote mean nothing about works for earning salvation. You need to explain Ephesians 2:8 to 10 befor you can bounce in the contradictory verses. You won't because you can't.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Not of faith either--but by God's grace. How does that somehow cancel and cover the fact faith is necessary for salvation--and not dead faith:

James 2:20--King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

One could make the point that the wire conduit that connects to the light is not what illuminates it--but that does not mean the illumination will take place without the conduit.

As the scriptures teach--grace p***es through faith for salvation--just as electricity p***es through the conduit for illumination:

Ephesians 2:8 --For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

As the scriptures also teach--all are judged in accordance with what one does with the gifts--and that for the joy of thy lord--or outer darkness:

Matthew 25:14-30----King James Version (KJV)
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Some points here:

1) It was His servants the Lord gave the gifts to--not the other way around.

2) All were judged according to what they did with the gifts.

3) The ones who magnified their gifts received the joy of thy lord--the ones who did not--outer darkness.

Originally Posted by Saxon

Faith does not save anyone! it Is a Gift not of works. You continually ignore Ephesians 2:8 to 10 that clearly states that salvation is a gift of God and not of works.

I believe the Biblical text accepts all forms of God's grace as gifts to mankind. That is not being argued--only who this grace goes to. If the scriptures are correct--this gift of eternal life--as a personal reception--goes to them that obey God:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The faith alone have to deny any scripture that has God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him. The LDS accept it as truth.

All the verses that you quote mean nothing about works for earning salvation.

So--you believe all those verses are about one earning grace, IE--

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Did those of Acts2:38 earn the remission of sins--or does God extend His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

You need to explain Ephesians 2:8 to 10 befor you can bounce in the contradictory verses. You won't because you can't.

So--you believe the verses I quote are contradictory to Ephesians 2:8?

I have stated a number of times--the faith alone have a cancel and cover theology--anythime scriptures are quoted that defy their theology--they run to another verse they believe cancels and covers that verse.

Not only do you not make your point in doing so--you render the Bible a very unreliable source of truth. Saxon--one has to harmonize the Bible in order to claim it as a truth.

The LDS believe there is no contradiction in Ephesians 2 and the rest of the Bible. One is not saved by faith or works--but that does not mean neither is necessary for salvation. The Bible is plain--the disobedient do not receive of God's gift of eternal life:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

IOW--it's not by works or faith--but what does save--God's grace--which goes only to those who obey God.

The faith alone have no way of collating Ephesians2 with the verses that confirm obedience is necessary for salvation to occur--other than denial.

[Saxon]

I believe the Biblical text accepts all forms of God's grace as gifts to mankind. That is not being argued--only who this grace goes to. If the scriptures are correct--this gift of eternal life--as a personal reception--goes to them that obey God:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The faith alone have to deny any scripture that has God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him. The LDS accept it as truth.

I believe that Ephesians 2:8 to 10 is commenting on salvation. There is no hint in the text that there is any other intent. Only salvation is being discussed here. You can bring in all the contradictions you wish but at the end of the day you are still stuck with salvation is a gift from God given by grace because we as humans cannot and will not ever be able to earn salvation and gifts are not earned either. Ephesians 2:9 still says “not of works”. What part of not of works do you not understand???

Ephesians 2:10 still instructs that works come after we are created in Christ Jesus. Works do not save but are the results of salvation.

Matthew 7:19-21 is speaking of those that are already created in Christ Jesus and they are the saved on earth that haven’t died a physical death. Don’t waste your time putting out verses that are seemingly contrary to Ephesians 2:8 to 10 until you can explain why you believe Ephesians 2:8 to 10 is not true.

You keep on saying faith alone. Faith alone for what??

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

So--you believe all those verses are about one earning grace, IE--

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Did those of Acts2:38 earn the remission of sins--or does God extend His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Seeing that I don’t believe that you can earn grace the answer is obviously, NO. You are the one that believes that they are about earning grace. Isn’t that what we are discussing?

So--you believe the verses I quote are contradictory to Ephesians 2:8?

I have stated a number of times--the faith alone have a cancel and cover theology--anythime scriptures are quoted that defy their theology--they run to another verse they believe cancels and covers that verse.

Not only do you not make your point in doing so--you render the Bible a very unreliable source of truth. Saxon--one has to harmonize the Bible in order to claim it as a truth.

If you care to check your Articles of Faith number 8 you are the ones that have attempted to render the Bible a very unreliable source of truth. If you were honest with yourself you know that LDS put all their extra biblical books above the Bible and only resort to it when arguing with Bible believers. It is too obvious by the way you abuse the Bible text that you really do not know what the Bible is about and couldn’t explain it if your life depended on it and it does.

The LDS believe there is no contradiction in Ephesians 2 and the rest of the Bible. One is not save by faith or works--but that does not mean neither is necessary for salvation. The Bible is plain--the disobedient do not receive of God's gift of eternal life:

I don’t believe that there is any contradiction in Ephesians 2 and the rest of the Bible, the problem is that the LDS doesn’t believe the Bible or have any faith in it for what it says. If you don’t see the contradiction between Ephesians 2:8 to 10 and LDS doctrine of salvation then you are truly blind or cannot read and comprehend the Bible.

You are wrong. It is the disobedient that receive the gift of eternal life because they are the ones that need it and those are the people that Jesus came to die for; the lost. You are truly ignorant of what the Bible teaches.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

IOW--it's not by works or faith--but what does save--God's grace--goes only to those who obey God.

The faith alone have no way of collating Ephesians2 with the verses that confirm obedience is necessary for salvation to occur--other than denial.

Obedience does not cause salvation to occur. Salvation is a Gift from God. Gifts are no earned by obedience or any other act of goodness. If it could be earned it would no longer be a gift.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I believe the Biblical text accepts all forms of God's grace as gifts to mankind. That is not being argued--only who this grace goes to. If the scriptures are correct--this gift of eternal life--as a personal reception--goes to them that obey God:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The faith alone have to deny any scripture that has God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him. The LDS accept it as truth.

So--you believe all those verses are about one earning grace, IE--

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Did those of Acts2:38 earn the remission of sins--or does God extend His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

[/B]Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So--you believe the verses I quote are contradictory to Ephesians 2:8?

I have stated a number of times--the faith alone have a cancel and cover theology--anythime scriptures are quoted that defy their theology--they run to another verse they believe cancels and covers that verse.

Not only do you not make your point in doing so--you render the Bible a very unreliable source of truth. Saxon--one has to harmonize the Bible in order to claim it as a truth.

The LDS believe there is no contradiction in Ephesians 2 and the rest of the Bible. One is not save by faith or works--but that does not mean neither is necessary for salvation. The Bible is plain--the disobedient do not receive of God's gift of eternal life:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

IOW--it's not by works or faith--but what does save--God's grace--goes only to those who obey God.

The faith alone have no way of collating Ephesians2 with the verses that confirm obedience is necessary for salvation to occur--other than denial.

Originally Posted by Saxon

I believe that Ephesians 2:8 to 10 is commenting on salvation.

And??? What do you believe is contradictory between Ephesians2--and Hebrews5:9?

You can bring in all the contradictions you wish but at the end of the day you are still stuck with salvation is a gift from God given by grace because we as humans cannot and will not ever be able to earn salvation and gifts are not earned either.

Again--there has been no argument that salvation is a gift of God--I agree with that. The scriptures state this gift goes to them that obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)[B]
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

That defies faith alone theology.

Again--did those who were promised the remission of sins--which repented and were water baptized--earn the forgiveness of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If not--then the scriptures testify God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him. How are you claiming that contradicts Ephesians 2:8? It's not of works--as the scriptures state--but by Grace.

And that grace goes to them that obey God.

Ephesians 2:9 still says “not of works”. What part of not of works do you not understand???

Again--do you believe those receiving the remission of sins who repented and were baptized--were saved by grace or works?

The Biblical text shows they were saved by God's grace--whuich went to those who obeyed God--and repented and were water baptized.

Were these of 1John saved by the Blood of Christ--or by walking in the light?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The scriptures state they were saved by through the Blood of Christ--which those who walked in the light received.

Ephesians 2:10 still instructs that works come after we are created in Christ Jesus. Works do not save but are the results of salvation.

The scriptures show that salvation came to those who obeyed Christ:

Galatians 3:26-29---King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

That connects salvation, faith, and baptism together--as integral components.

You keep on saying faith alone. Faith alone for what??

Salvation--according to those of the faith alone theology.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

So--you believe all those verses are about one earning grace, IE--

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Did those of Acts2:38 earn the remission of sins--or does God extend His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

[/B]Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)[B]
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Originally Posted by Saxon

Seeing that I don’t believe that you can earn grace the answer is obviously, NO.

Then why, whenever I post scriptures that have God extending His grace to those who obey Him--do you come back with the statement we can't earn grace?

You are the one that believes that they are about earning grace.

Cite, please. Where have I ever claimed God extending His salvational grace to them who obey Him as "earning grace"? I don't believe God giving His grace to them who obey Him is earning grace--that is why it is called grace.

But I do believe those who obey God--and walk in His light--are promised the salvational grace of His Blood:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The faith alone have to deny those scriptures--and usually engage a cancel and cover tactic by quoting other scriptures, in an attempt to cancel those truths out--and labeling those who quote such scriptures as those who believe we can earn God's grace.

Again--what is it about God extending His salvational grace to them that obey Him--as "earning grace"?

[Saxon]

Then why, whenever I post scriptures that have God extending His grace to those who obey Him--do you come back with the statement we can't earn grace?

The reason that I say what I say is because you are putting that statement into a context of you have to obey or you won’t get saved. That is not the Biblical context.

You LDS version of salvation is not the same as the Bible version of salvation.


LDS VERSION
LDS: Believe Christ’s death brought release from grave and universal resurrection. Salvation by grace is universal resurrection. Beyond this, man must earn his place in heaven. Saved by grace after all we can do.

Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 669-671:

SALVATION

1. Unconditional or general salvation, that which comes by grace alone without obedience to gospel law, consists in the mere fact of being resurrected. In this sense salvation is synonymous with immortality; it is the inseparable connection of body and spirit so that the resurrected personage lives forever.

This kind of salvation eventually will come to all mankind, excepting only the sons of perdition. ...Thus it is that the Lord "saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him." (D. & C. 76:40-48.) All others are saved from death, hell, the devil, and endless torment. (2 Ne. 9:18-27.)

But this is not the salvation of righteousness, the salvation which the saints seek. Those who gain only this general or unconditional salvation will still be judged according to their works and receive their places in a terrestrial or a telestial kingdom. They will, therefore, be ****ed; their eternal progression will be cut short; they will not fill the full measure of their creation, but in eternity will be ministering servants to more worthy persons.

2. Conditional or individual salvation, that which comes by grace coupled with gospel obedience, consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. This kind of salvation follows faith, repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one's mortal probation. (D. & C. 20:29; 2 Ne. 9:23-24.) ...

Even those in the celestial kingdom, however, who do not go on to exaltation, will have immortality only and not eternal life. Along with those of the telestial and terrestrial worlds they will be "ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory." They will live "separately and singly" in an unmarried state "without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity." (D. & C. 132:16-17.)

3. Salvation in its true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the celestial kingdom. With few exceptions this is the salvation of which the scriptures speak. It is the salvation which the saints seek. It is of this which the Lord says, "There is no gift greater than the gift of salvation." (D. & C. 6:13.) This full salvation is obtained in and through the continuation of the family unit in eternity, and those who obtain it are gods. (D. & C. 131:1-4; 132.)

Full salvation is attained by virtue of knowledge, truth, righteousness, and all true principles. Many conditions must exist in order to make such salvation available to men. Without the atonement, the gospel, the priesthood, and the sealing power, there would be no salvation [full salvation/exaltation]. Without continuous revelation, the ministering of angels, the working of miracles, the prevalence of gifts of the spirit, there would be no salvation. If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation [in the full sense of exaltation to godhood]. There is no salvation [exaltation] outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. ...

SALVATION BY GRACE

...one of the untrue doctrines found in modern Christendom is the concept that man can gain salvation (meaning in the kingdom of God) by grace alone and without obedience. This soul-destroying doctrine has the obvious effect of lessening the determination of an individual to conform to all of the laws and ordinances of the gospel, such conformity being essential if the sought for reward is in reality to be gained.

Immortality is a free gift and comes without works or righteousness of any sort; all men will come forth in the resurrection because of the atoning sacrifice of Christ. (1 Cor. 15:22.) In and of itself the resurrection is a form of salvation meaning that men are thereby saved from death, hell, the devil, and endless torment. ...Works are not involved, neither the works of the Mosaic law nor the works of righteousness that go with the fulness of the gospel.

Salvation in the celestial kingdom of God, however, is not salvation by grace alone. Rather, it is salvation by grace coupled with obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. (Third Article of Faith.) Those who gain it are "raised in immortality unto eternal life." (D. & C. 29:43; 2 Ne. 9:22-24.) Immortality comes by grace alone, but those who gain it may find themselves ****ed in eternity. (Alma 11:37-45.) Eternal life, the kind of life enjoyed by eternal beings in the celestial kingdom, comes by grace plus obedience. And the very opportunity to follow the course of good works which will lead to that salvation sought by the saints comes also by the grace of God.


BIBLE VERSION
BIBLE: Salvation is not limited to universal resurrection but is a gift from God to those who believe.

Romans 1:16

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Hebrews 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The lost will not obey so there is no chance that they will be saved because of obedience.

The reason that I say that you can’t earn grace or salvation is because the term, grace does not allow it to be earned by definition and salvation cannot be earned because as I keep repeating, salvation is not of works (See Ephesians 2:8-9)

Cite, please. Where have I ever claimed God extending His salvational grace to them who obey Him as "earning grace"? I don't believe God giving His grace to them who obey Him is earning grace--that is why it is called grace.

But I do believe those who obey God--and walk in His light--are promised the salvational grace of His Blood:

If, according to you, you don’t obey then you will not receive. Every time you make that statement you claim you have to earn salvation.

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The faith alone have to deny those scriptures--and usually engage a cancel and cover tactic by quoting other scriptures, in an attempt to cancel those truths out--and labeling those who quote such scriptures as those who believe we can earn God's grace.

1 John 1:7 is written to the saved. And it adds nothing to your argument. The lost do not and cannot walk in the light. The saved can walk in the light, but have to remain in the light. The saved are saved before they die a physical death. You have no concept of Bible truth.

Again--what is it about God extending His salvational grace to them that obey Him--as "earning grace"?

You are saying you have to obey in order to gain salvation. The Bible says that it is the gift of God, not of works.

[Saxon]

And??? What do you believe is contradictory between Ephesians2--and Hebrews5:9?

I don’t believe that there is anything contradictory between Ephesians 2:8 to 10 and Hebrews 5:9. What is at fault is you trying to make it seem that obedience is a requirement to gain salvation. I will agree that all those that are saved do obey. I will not agree that in order to gain salvation you are required to obey. All that a person need do in order to have God save you by his grace is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. (See Acts 16:30 and 31)


Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Again--there has been no argument that salvation is a gift of God--I agree with that. The scriptures state this gift goes to them that obey Him:

No, you do not agree with that. You are implying that you must obey in order to gain salvation. Then you claim it is a gift. All a person need do is receive the gift because it is a gift. Gifts are not given because of obligation, they are freely given without qualifications. You have no understanding whatsoever about gifts or grace regarding salvation.

[B]Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

That defies faith alone theology.

Explain how. You will have a hard time because there is no faith alone theology except in your wild imagination.

Again--did those who were promised the remission of sins--which repented and were water baptized--earn the forgiveness of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Seeing that salvation is not of works did not earn the forgiveness of sins. Those in Acts 2:38 were saved by grace before they repented and were baptized. Salvation first then works after.

If not--then the scriptures testify God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him. How are you claiming that contradicts Ephesians 2:8? It's not of works--as the scriptures state--but by Grace.

And that grace goes to them that obey God.

Who is obeying God? The lost or the saved? The lost will not obey God. Show me any lost person that will obey God and I will show you the figment of your imagination.

Scripture does not contradict scripture. It is people that use scripture out of context that contradict scripture. The Bible says that salvation is not of works. Any time you try to make scripture say that you need to perform some act or work to gain salvation you are wrong and are using scripture out of context.

Again--do you believe those receiving the remission of sins who repented and were baptized--were saved by grace or works?

Those who repented and were baptized were saved by grace before they repented and were baptized, they were not saved by works. (See Ephesians 2:9) Works always come after salvation. (See Ephesians 2:10) Find out what it means to be “in Christ”.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The Biblical text shows they were saved by God's grace--whuich went to those who obeyed God--and repented and were water baptized.

Were these of 1John saved by the Blood of Christ--or by walking in the light?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The scriptures state they were saved by through the Blood of Christ--which those who walked in the light received.

You really have need of studying the Bible. You have no idea of what you are talking about.

The scriptures show that salvation came to those who obeyed Christ:

Galatians 3:26-29---King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

That connects salvation, faith, and baptism together--as integral components.

That is correct. After you have received salvation by the grace of God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ you get baptized.

Salvation--according to those of the faith alone theology

.

Who might they be????

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

I don’t believe that there is anything contradictory between Ephesians 2:8 to 10 and Hebrews 5:9. What is at fault is you trying to make it seem that obedience is a requirement to gain salvation.

What is there about Hebrews5:9 that you don't believe?


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

I will agree that all those that are saved do obey.

They wouldn't be saved if they didn't obey:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

I will not agree that in order to gain salvation you are required to obey.

I know--the faith alone believe it's a salvation through a faith without works, IE--a dead faith saves:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

IOW--in the faith alone theology--there is not the first act of obedience to Jesus Christ required for salvation:

2 John 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

All that a person need do in order to have God save you by his grace is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. (See Acts 16:30 and 31)

Is this belief in Christ?


Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.


Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

All a person need do is receive the gift because it is a gift. Gifts are not given because of obligation, they are freely given without qualifications. You have no understanding whatsoever about gifts or grace regarding salvation.

What is it about the forgiveness of sins you don't consider a gift?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You will have a hard time because there is no faith alone theology except in your wild imagination.

Sola fide--From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and some in the Restoration Movement.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

The reason that I say what I say is because you are putting that statement into a context of you have to obey or you won’t get saved. That is not the Biblical context.

You LDS version of salvation is not the same as the Bible version of salvation.


LDS VERSION
LDS: Believe Christ’s death brought release from grave and universal resurrection. Salvation by grace is universal resurrection. Beyond this, man must earn his place in heaven. Saved by grace after all we can do.

Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Could you explain for us how that differs from Christ's testimony?

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Those in Acts 2:38 were saved by grace before they repented and were baptized. Salvation first then works after.

So--one does not need the forgiveness of sins for salvation?

That is a denial of the need of the Blood of Jesus Christ for salvation:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

[Saxon]

What is there about Hebrews5:9 that you don't believe?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

There is nothing about Hebrews 5:9 that I don’t believe. What it is that I don’t believe is the way YOU are trying to make it mean you need to obey in order to gain salvation. You keep implying this in spite of the fact that the Bible clearly states that salvation is the GIFT of God and it is NOT of works. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9) Ephesians 2:10 tells us that works definitely come into play AFTER we are in Christ Jesus, saved. You are attempting to make the Bible say two different things. You are wrong, not Hebrews 5:9.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

They wouldn't be saved if they didn't obey:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

After a person is saved they obey. Those that are not saved do not obey.

The lost will not obey, therefore the lost need to be saved. It is their disobedience (sin) that makes them unsaved. The saved are the ones that will obey. Their salvation by God’s grace is what makes them obedient. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 and 9 says that it is them that know not God and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

This is clear that you have not read this correctly.

I know--the faith alone believe it's a salvation through a faith without works, IE--a dead faith saves:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Just for the record, I will repeat myself. Faith does not save. Believing does not save. Grace does not save. What does save is God alone.

Why do you keep droning on about dead faith saving? Faith does not save, dead faith nor living faith.

IOW--in the faith alone theology--there is not the first act of obedience to Jesus Christ required for salvation:

2 John 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

There is no act of obedience that is required for salvation. Salvation is the GIFT of God. NOT of works. There is nothing that is going to change that.

Is this belief in Christ?


Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Acts 2:38-42 is the result in belief in Christ because when you believe in Christ, God saves the believing person by his grace.

Galatians 6:7-9 is describing a universal effect on both the saved and the unsaved. Read it for what it says.

[Saxon]

What is it about the forgiveness of sins you don't consider a gift?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Absolutely nothing. The forgiveness of sins, salvation, is totally a gift. Gifts are not earned. Gifts are freely given and freely received. Not of works. Works come after salvation. Acts 2:38 is about those that were saved after Peter preached. Seeing that salvation is a Gift that can’t be earned, it is obvious that the term “for” is to be taken for the term “because”. See any in-depth dictionary and look up for and see the use of for as because.

Sola fide--From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and some in the Restoration Movement.

And your point is???? If you have bothered to actually read my posts you should realize by now that as far as salvation goes, I do not believe in the faith alone for salvation concept as YOU understand it.

[Saxon]

Where did you ever get that idea from??

[Saxon]

You can deny it all you want, but whenever I say not of works there is always some thing about you having to be doing something to gain salvation, repent, be baptized and the like. You can't have it both ways. Either it is a gift that is freely given and freely receive or it isn't.

[Saxon]

More works, "after all we can do". What is the all we can do??