"Heaven"

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

God is not just in the book that you cling to, Billy.

God's work is in the Bible and yet you disregard large chunks of it because you don't like what God has to say.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You know better. DB knows better. PaPa knows better.

Do you honestly believe that we think your religious beliefs are more correct, but we are purposefully dismissing them, regardless? Why in the world would we do that?

If you do believe that, you couldn't be more wrong.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

God's work is in the Bible and yet you disregard large chunks of it because you don't like what God has to say.

I disregard "some of it", because I don't believe it is from God.

That's what you don't seem to "get".

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I do also--but I don't believe that necessarily has anything to do with your mental health. All I know is--you don't seem to understand well--but I find that applicable to many of the faith alone.

They avoid the reality of the scriptures. Their theologies are supported by the cover and cancel plots they rehe**** over and over.

dberrie, the scriptures will not make sense to those who are not born again. You can keep spinning your wheels and riding the same merry-go-round trying to merit heaven through church rules, laws, ordinances and countless numbers of commandments.(none of this is even taught in the Holy Scriptures) But what you're actually doing is denying the grace that God offers to all men who will turn to Christ. James Banta finally got off that merry-go-round and has a love for the Lord that I don't see expressed on this forum anywhere. He is so thankful to Jesus for saving him. But the lds church deems him an apostate because he left that church, so he's made a target on here. If you truly care about doing the right thing, you would apologize to him.

BTW, you still haven't supplied any evidence on what was lost that the lds church restored. This is because God always has His faithful remnant and the Gospel of Jesus Christ has never been lost.

[ActRaiser]

Originally Posted by Libby

I disregard "some of it", because I don't believe it is from God.

That's what you don't seem to "get".

The real irony of this is you can believe all of the Bible and disagree with Jesus being THE way to Heaven and you'd still be going straight to Hell.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Libby

Because it was ALSO an NDE and someone who had joined the LDS Church because of it. (this is the Mormonism board, right?) Plus, it's a book I had read, myself. I've actually read many books on NDE's. I find it a fascinating subject.

So, do you have an opinion about NDE's (the ones I posted, in particular) or are you just here to har***?

Hi Libby, I have read and heard about many NDE and more than few who were non believers became born again Christians.

I would like to ask you something. Do you believe that all roads lead to heaven?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by ActRaiser

The real irony of this is you can believe all of the Bible and disagree with Jesus being THE way to Heaven and you'd still be going straight to Hell.

Then you wouldn't "believe all of the Bible".

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So do you think God will forgive mormons who worship false gods especially those who know better such as yourself?

Originally Posted by Libby

Why would a loving God hold someone responsible for doing something they didn't know was wrong, Billy? Especially, when they are trying their best to do what they believe is RIGHT...?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Because they are sinners. Isn't it just to hold sinners responsible for what they have done?

If a person committed a crime wouldn't it be just to hold that person responsible for the crime that he committed?

Originally Posted by Libby

Not if that person doesn't know any better,

Originally Posted by Billyray

You know better. DB knows better. PaPa knows better.

Originally Posted by Libby

Do you honestly believe that we think your religious beliefs are more correct, but we are purposefully dismissing them, regardless? Why in the world would we do that?
.

Each one of us has a basic understanding of right and wrong and yet each of us still chooses wrong. Because of our sin we deserve punishment and it is fair to punish to who do wrong just like I said in a prior post. You know what is right and wrong and yet you persist in doing wrong. Is God unfair to punish you for this (***uming that you do not come to him in faith)?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

Hi Libby, I have read and heard about many NDE and more than few who were non believers became born again Christians.

Yes, it seems to touch those who have them very, very deeply.

I've only read a few stories, and all have been from Christians. It would be interesting to hear NDE stories from other cultures.

When I was around 14 years old, a man in our church (I grew up First Baptist) relayed a near death experience he had. His was very negative (or at least he perceived it that way). He was falling into a deep dark pit, with angels above him, singing. It was a terrifying experience. He did become a born again, after that, and went around to various churches telling of his experience...warning people, actually, that "hell" was a real place.

I don't know what kind of life this man had led or what his beliefs were, previously, but I am guessing he was not a very nice person and that he probably believed he "might" go to hell, long before he had that experience.

At any rate, it did seem to change his life for the better.

I would like to ask you something. Do you believe that all roads lead to heaven?

Ultimately, yes. That doesn't mean that every path we take is a "direct" route back to God. I think all of us wander (meander) quite a bit and have many, many experiences through, perhaps, millions of lifetimes....but we will all return to God, eventually.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Each one of us has a basic understanding of right and wrong and yet each of us still chooses wrong. Because of our sin we deserve punishment and it is fair to punish to who do wrong just like I said in a prior post. You know what is right and wrong and yet you persist in doing wrong. Is God unfair to punish you for this (***uming that you do not come to him in faith)?

I asked you a direct question (which you did not answer). You were ***uming that I and Papa and DB had differing religious beliefs (different from yours), knowing full well that our beliefs are wrong and yours are right. You seem to believe we are headed for hell, mainly, because we don't "believe" as you do. I am asking you, why would we embrace beliefs that we don't really believe, rather than your beliefs that are, supposedly, more true?? That's just not happening. I believe what I believe, because I sincerely believe it's true (and have some experience to back it up). If I am wrong, I know that a loving God will be gracious and kind and gently redirect....not punitive and unforgiving.

Yes, we all do things that are wrong, sometimes knowingly. But, I don't think anyone who has a full awareness of a wrong behavior, will continue in that behavior...mostly because bad behavior is self destructive. Most of us do not fully realize how bad behavior affects our lives and the lives of others. This is something we, often, have to learn through experience.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, it seems to touch those who have them very, very deeply.

I've only read a few stories, and all have been from Christians. It would be interesting to hear NDE stories from other cultures.

When I was around 14 years old, a man in our church (I grew up First Baptist) relayed a near death experience he had. His was very negative (or at least he perceived it that way). He was falling into a deep dark pit, with angels above him, singing. It was a terrifying experience. He did become a born again, after that, and went around to various churches telling of his experience...warning people, actually, that "hell" was a real place.

I don't know what kind of life this man had led or what his beliefs were, previously, but I am guessing he was not a very nice person and that he probably believed he "might" go to hell, long before he had that experience.

At any rate, it did seem to change his life for the better.



Ultimately, yes. That doesn't mean that every path we take is a "direct" route back to God. I think all of us wander (meander) quite a bit and have many, many experiences through, perhaps, millions of lifetimes....but we will all return to God, eventually.

There is no such thing as a path back to God.. There is a Way to God and that way is Jesus.. Anything other than He is a path to destruction. Unless you again put yourself above the Biblical record where Jesus tells us that there are only two paths; the wide road and the narrow path.. You have lost your way Libby.. It's time to put away all this eastern thinking and ways of men and come home to Jesus.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

So would your idea of a trip to heaven look like...clouds, God not caring what kind of man you have been. What would a Spirit who fills the universe look like? Any angels with bird wings?

Answered in one word... JESUS.. IHS jim

[Libby]

But, I think we are talking about two different things, here (directed at Billy)..

You claim behavior doesn't "save" us. It is our "beliefs", according to you, that save us. So, let's focus on belief...and whether or not people "intentionally" believe things that are wrong.

I don't believe most people hold "wrong beliefs", intentionally....and I really don't think you believe that, either, because you believe people cannot come to God, unless he first regenerates them. How, then, could you or God hold them responsible for their beliefs, if that is really true?

That is one of the big holes in the Calvinistic system of belief, IMHO.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

You are very confused, Jim. There was nothing about reincarnation in her book. She remembered a relationship with Jesus Christ in a "premortal life" (same as LDS believe). The "heavens" were pointed out, but she did not personally go there.

Nothing on this thread is "made up". This is from a book about Elane Durham's "death experience". You might want to go back and actually read it. That should clear up some of your confusion.

Then the confusion is yours.. You were the one that brought the subject up,. not me.. If something was made up you made it up.. I was not commenting to her account.. What I read I found unbiblical. What you said in the conversation I find to have an eastern teaching, totally nonchristian.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Then the confusion is yours.. You were the one that brought the subject up,. not me.. If something was made up you made it up.. I was not commenting to her account.. What I read I found unbiblical. What you said in the conversation I find to have an eastern teaching, totally nonchristian.. IHS jim

No, the confusion is yours, because you ***umed the comments about reincarnation had to do with Elane's story. It didn't. Your ***umption was totally unrelated and out of context (probably because you haven't been reading everything on the thread)..

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

More false accusations, Jim. sigh

I have never accused you of having Alzheimers. I "one time" asked if you might not be suffering from cognitive dysfunction, due to your heart disease. You admitted that is a possibility, although, you did not think it was occurring just yet. I pretty much dropped it, at that. Your posts are, sometimes, very difficult to understand...and they often have many typos. I insinuated nothing about your "character", as you have mine, many, many times. You, also, constantly accuse people of not being able to understand, because they are not regenerated or whatever. You whine and complain about others insulting you MUCH MORE than anyone else on this board, and yet you are the number one name caller and insulter of others, on this board.

As for reincarnation, I mentioned it once, in the beginning of this thread, in reference to a completely different story (NOT Elane's story). If you had been following along, in order, and with some thoughtfulness, you could have (probably) figured that out for yourself. But, you are so anxious to put me down or find fault, that you trip over yourself to do it (and usually trip yourself up, as well).

So, now, I will continue with Elane's story. You don't have to read it, if you don't like it...that's fine. But, if you're going to make comments, please try and make them on something that pertains to what was actually posted. Thank you.

No, you used the word Alzheimer's I am sure of it.. I accused you of trying to practice medicine remotely and without a license.. I told you I have been completely examined by a compliant, licensed MD and found to be quite whole.. I doubt very much you have been so examined. While I don't pretend to be a great typist I am quite competent in my messages.

As for Elane's story God has made His order of creation very clear in His word.. He said he created the physical first then the spiritual. Not the other way around as this story would demand.

I will continue to post about what you have said as you lead into this this woman's dream.. You invoked your eastern doctrines bringing reincarnation into the conversation.. Go look if you don't believe me.. I already reported your remarks on the subject so you can find them without effort.. As I said before, if you don't remember doing that you should get a check up.. IHS jim

[Libby]

I am approaching the limit to what I can copy from this book. My Kindle sets limits to how much can be copied from copyrighted works. So, I will only be able to copy a few more paragraphs from this book.

I'm going to try and pick out what I thought was most important.

[Libby]

No, you used the word Alzheimer's I am sure of it..

You are wrong about this, Jim, and probably confusing me with someone else. I never said you had Alzheimer's. I know that you don't. My reference was to your heart disease only.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

If it does not fit his view...he can't see or believe.

If it doesn't conform to what the bible says I don't believe it.. You on the other hand will believe anything that you feel is right.. What is it that you doubt about the order of creation when God has told us through the Prophet that God created our spirits within us? What us was there to create it in if it wasn't our natural bodies formed in our mothers's wombs.. This is a p***age I have used many times you should know it as well as I, it's in Zech 12:1... IHS jim

[Libby]

Elane's story continued....(some highlights that likely led her into the LDS Church)

I SEE MY OWN LOVE AND LEARN OF ITS VALUE

“What have you done for your fellow man?” Christ asked again, and this time as I looked at my life I was able to see the love that I had felt for others despite their abuse and misuse. I could see my seemingly insignificant efforts to make peace. I could even see the prayers I had offered up in behalf of my mother, my father and my family. Those stood out like bright points of light against the darkness of my unhappy spaces in life.

How WE LOVE OTHERS Is MOST IMPORTANT

I knew then that the Savior wanted me to understand that His question had to do, not with worldly things, but with how much honest and sincere love I had given to others, especially when it was hard for me to love them. And I knew with all my soas His love enveloped and filled me, that He was both pleased and satisfied with my efforts. It was based upon that criteria—how well I had actually done—

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Well, I don't think James really wants to understand any of this...which is fine. We all have our agency.

Will continue Elane's death experience, in just a minute.

By all means continue with this dream.. It of course hasn't anything to do with facts but is fiction. It is also proven that mormons like spiritually based fiction.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Elane was not a Mormon or anything close to it. She did not join the LDS Church until 15 years after her NDE.

[Libby]

continued..............

AN UNDERSTANDING OF ONENESS

When I was completely enmeshed and encircled in the love and understanding of my Lord Jesus Christ, I could feel God the Father and the Holy Spirit in that love, too. I had always thought of the three of them as “one,” being best expressed as the Holy Trinity. But now I knew with some surprise that they were separate en***ies. Yet just as I had become one with Christ, so were they one with each other, and the whole concept of “oneness” as taught by Jesus in the New Testament suddenly made perfect sense to me. While they had completely separate iden***ies, Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit were absolutely “one” in love. This love was unconditional, overwhelming, and denoted a complete unity of purpose between the three of them. And it was the same for me. Though I felt no sense of a body, neither did I experience any loss of iden***y. Though I was “one” with Him, I was just as much “me” as I had always been.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, it seems to touch those who have them very, very deeply.

I've only read a few stories, and all have been from Christians. It would be interesting to hear NDE stories from other cultures.

When I was around 14 years old, a man in our church (I grew up First Baptist) relayed a near death experience he had. His was very negative (or at least he perceived it that way). He was falling into a deep dark pit, with angels above him, singing. It was a terrifying experience. He did become a born again, after that, and went around to various churches telling of his experience...warning people, actually, that "hell" was a real place.

I don't know what kind of life this man had led or what his beliefs were, previously, but I am guessing he was not a very nice person and that he probably believed he "might" go to hell, long before he had that experience.

At any rate, it did seem to change his life for the better.



Ultimately, yes. That doesn't mean that every path we take is a "direct" route back to God. I think all of us wander (meander) quite a bit and have many, many experiences through, perhaps, millions of lifetimes....but we will all return to God, eventually.

I have also heard and read the story of Bill Wiese who has a book ***led: "23 Minutes in Hell." He had an out of body experience I guess it's called and God showed him the horrors of hell. His book is a warning to those who think hell is just a myth or not a literal place, that it is very real just as the Holy Bible indicates.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I don't necessarily see the relationship between being confused and mental health. Libby did not mention your mental health--only the point that you were confused about the facts. It could happen to any of us--even those with bright minds.

She tried to tie what she sees as confusion to a lack of blood supply to my brain. That is saying that I have a mental disease caused my physical problems. She has no right to make such a diagnosis. I tried to show her that just disagreeing on what the facts point to doesn't make her any more confused than I am. To say that it does is to put herself as the only judge of the facts. We should all bow down before her because she knows all things. Is that what you are saying here? I love to see you defend Libby.. That proves that you will accept anything as long as it soft peddles on the lies of mormonism.. IHS jim