"Heaven"

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Cherry picking did not make you point

Did God nullify those verses?

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Did God nullify those verses?

His rules when he wants...for those to who it was spoken they were to comply...to David he gave him Saul's wives.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by ActRaiser

That's true. And yet, there have been many millions of Christians who believe every bit of the Bible despite that. That doesn't mean that you need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Some things in the scriptures don't make sense until you are true believer, and even then, some things won't make sense until you study the scriptures thoroughly enough.

And, even then, some things still don't make sense. And, a God who murders and tortures his children, is one of the things that doesn't add up.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

No I haven't changed the goal posts. Here is our running dialogue below







Each one of us has a basic understanding of right and wrong and yet each of us still chooses wrong. Because of our sin we deserve punishment and it is fair to punish to who do wrong just like I said in a prior post. You know what is right and wrong and yet you persist in doing wrong. Is God unfair to punish you for this (***uming that you do not come to him in faith)?

You most certainly have changed the goal posts. If you'll notice, we started out talking about worshiping false gods, which you later changed to "sin", in general. I think because you KNOW that the LDS here (and myself, as well) are NOT intentionally worshiping false gods. We do NOT "KNOW" that we are worshiping false gods, as you have claimed.

I do not believe God punishes. I believe he draws us to him, always. I know he sees our mistakes and still loves us, just as any parent would. He is not a murderer or a sadistically punitive being, who constantly judges our every move...nor does he even care what we believe. He cares about our heart and what we "do". He cares whether or not we love and give and how kind we are to one another.

[ActRaiser]

Originally Posted by Libby

And, even then, some things still don't make sense. And, a God who murders and tortures his children, is one of the things that doesn't add up.

Yes, indeed once you know the word of God it makes sense. From hereon it will devolve into 'Uh huh, and Uh uh".

[Libby]

Originally Posted by ActRaiser

Yes, indeed once you know the word of God it makes sense. From hereon it will devolve into 'Uh huh, and Uh uh".

I'm not a Bible scholar, but I do "know" the Bible fairly well. It was reading it all the way through that actually opened my eyes to some of the problems.

And, no, I doubt we will agree. But, we can agree to disagree.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

I saw this...do they have clocks in hell?

You didn't read the book. It was 3 AM and then the vision. When it was over, he looked at the time again. Doesn't matter if his vision was real or not, the Scriptures teaches that hell is very real.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Song of Solomon...Christian porn.

I would be very careful about calling something in the Sriptures porn. It denotes the relationship of God and Israel, or Christ and the Church. But the natural man wouldn't see that.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't reject that, nor do I even reject most of the Bible. Just the parts that "insult my soul".

I have heard many unbelievers and atheists give the same reason for rejecting the Holy Bible because something in it offends them. Yet these very same people are pro abortion which is killing an innocent child. ****sexuals will reject or deny all p***ages that talks about unnatural affections.

It is impossible for us to understand the mind of a holy God. How our sins affect Him.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Then worry about a possible impending early death and leave my cognition out of your posts.. Remember I think you are even more confused than you believe I am.. After all every spiritual point I make here in based on Biblical reference.. A reference to Alzheimer's whether you remember making it or not is not in your area of expertise.. You are expert on extra biblical reference that counters the Biblical message.. IHS jim

Is everything ok with your health Jim?

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

You didn't read the book. It was 3 AM and then the vision. When it was over, he looked at the time again. Doesn't matter if his vision was real or not, the Scriptures teaches that hell is very real.

So 23 min hell trip but no heaven trips?

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

I would be very careful about calling something in the Sriptures porn. It denotes the relationship of God and Israel, or Christ and the Church. But the natural man wouldn't see that.

Yes the description of here breasts is...what again?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

I have heard many unbelievers and atheists give the same reason for rejecting the Holy Bible because something in it offends them. Yet these very same people are pro abortion which is killing an innocent child. ****sexuals will reject or deny all p***ages that talks about unnatural affections.

I am not "pro-abortion". I really don't know anyone who is.

As for GLBT they are a very mistreated and maligned group...mostly in the name of religion. It's a real travesty.

It is impossible for us to understand the mind of a holy God. How our sins affect Him.

I think that is an excuse that allows some Christians to feel okay about things that they know are wrong.

Yes, it is impossible to know 'completely' the mind of God, but he is not so very different from us that morality gets turned on it's head. He doesn't teach us one thing (thou shalt not kill...especially innocents like babies and animals) and then have a completely different standard for himself. Sorry, I just don't buy that. It's a very ugly untruth. The men who wrote the Bible were from very primitive, tribal nations. I do believe God spoke to some of the prophets (in particular, to p*** along prophecy of the coming of Jesus Christ), but I don't believe he told these primitive tribes to commit some of the atrocities that they attributed to him.

[Libby]

A few more excerpts from Elane's book...........

THE PERFECT LOVE OF JESUS CHRIST

Thus Christ, whose love is perfect and whose life was the same, rendered perfect service as He lived, suffered and then died for the sins of each of us, His fellow men. He was my God in every sense of the word, and I knew of His desire that I become as Him. That was why He had asked me twice, “What have you done for your fellow man?” He showed through His own life and atonement that everything about our lives, on earth as well as in the premortal realms I was now remembering, had to do with our relationships with others.

If instead of loving I end up hurting others either physically, emotionally or in any other way, I am diminished spiritually by it and become less like Him. On the other hand, if I have ***isted others in any way by making their lives better, even for a moment or so, then I will be rewarded with additional spiritual power and so become more Christ-like. It is sort of like having a heavenly bank account that grows when I do good for others, and that grows even more when I sincerely pray for them, like the little nurse and the priest had done for me when I had “felt” their prayers in the hospital. I think this is because only God sees my prayers, where many might see my deeds and give me mortal rewards for them.

Durham, Elane (1998-01-08). I Stand All Amazed (Kindle Locations 510-519). Granite Publishing and Distribution. Kindle Edition.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

Is everything ok with your health Jim?

No..

But because I have cardiomyopathy doesn't mean I am mentally impaired. There are many brilliant men and women that have physical weaknesses. I have a good Doctor who make sure my O2 is where it needs to be and I remember what he has done from my last visit better than he does and he always has my chart right in front of him.. Libby is just trying her best to give a reason why a man would stay close to a God she has rejected.. I think it is more for her personal satisfaction to find a reason to attack my faith than it is that she is concerned for my health.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Elane was not a Mormon or anything close to it. She did not join the LDS Church until 15 years after her NDE.

Aw the truth comes out.. She is LDS and when did she finally publish this account? I'd bet it was AFTER she was LDS? Like Smith I would also bet that her remembrances of the events changed over the years.. Now it's clear all this claptrap was worthless.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

What does heaven look like in the Bible, Jim? please tell me...

Here is a glimpse of heaven directly from the Holy Spirit through the Apostle John

Rev 5
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
And before the throne there was a sea of gl*** like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
And when those beasts give glory and honor and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Seems a Bible scholar like you could have found this on his own.. IHS jim

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by James Banta

No..

But because I have cardiomyopathy doesn't mean I am mentally impaired. There are many brilliant men and women that have physical weaknesses. I have a good Doctor who make sure my O2 is where it needs to be and I remember what he has done from my last visit better than he does and he always has my chart right in front of him.. Libby is just trying her best to give a reason why a man would stay close to a God she has rejected.. I think it is more for her personal satisfaction to find a reason to attack my faith than it is that she is concerned for my health.. IHS jim

We just know to much about your "faith".

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Here is a glimpse of heaven directly from the Holy Spirit through the Apostle John

Rev 5
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
And before the throne there was a sea of gl*** like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
And when those beasts give glory and honor and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Seems a Bible scholar like you could have found this on his own.. IHS jim

So looking forward to your "new name" and "white [seer] stone"...keep reading Jim...and then find out that you will be judged according to your works and not your "faith". All this from memory...how long did it take you...oh wait you have 17 more chapters in Revelation...did not ever have to look it up.

[ActRaiser]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

So looking forward to your "new name" and "white [seer] stone"...keep reading Jim...and then find out that you will be judged according to your works and not your "faith". All this from memory...how long did it take you...oh wait you have 17 more chapters in Revelation...did not ever have to look it up.

:Sigh:

Why do you believe that all holy things are magical or occult in origin?

[theway]

Originally Posted by Libby

A neurophysicist has been in the news, recently, recounting a near-death-experience he had, while in a coma (his brain was completely flat-lined).

This man had a vague belief that there may be some kind of creator God, but he did not believe in a "personal God"...a God who loved or cared about individuals.

So, he was in a coma, in a very serious, near death situation, with no brain waves showing, and he had this beautiful experience with God (a God of unconditional love), which totally changed his life.

This is one of thousands of NDE's, all somewhat different.

I read a book by a woman who had no belief in God, who became LDS, after an NDE, because of some things she experienced.


http://www.amazon.com/Stand-All-Amaz.../dp/1890558273

Very interesting book.

My sister wrote a book just like this. I noticed that they linked to it in the above website.

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by ActRaiser

:Sigh:

Why do you believe that all holy things are magical or occult in origin?

I quoted Revelation...what those in heaven are promised...got Bible? You will also find that you will be judged for your works and not your faith.

[ActRaiser]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

I am quoted Revelation...what those in heaven are promised...got Bible? You will also find that you will be judged for your works and not your faith.

I've got a Bible. And I've always understood this p***age as reffering to God judging those based on what their individual rewards in Heaven will be, not whether they get to Heaven in the first place.

Furthermore, the Bible condemns all occult activity. "Seer Stones" do not exist in Christianity.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by theway

My sister wrote a book just like this. I noticed that they linked to it in the above website.

That's very interesting, TW. Was it "Through the Window of Life"? I might be interested in reading it. I find these NDE's very interesting.

(I was going to ask about your sister and how she came to have such an experience...but, you may not want to discuss that here...and I would understand, if you'd rather not)..

[Libby]

Libby is just trying her best to give a reason why a man would stay close to a God she has rejected.. I think it is more for her personal satisfaction to find a reason to attack my faith than it is that she is concerned for my health.. IHS jim

My question about your "health" had absolutely nothing to do with your faith. I don't begrudge you your faith, such as it is...why would I?