"Heaven"

[ActRaiser]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Now stories on NDE are found a lot within the church.
The christian book store in your city likely has many books where people will tell a story of going to heaven or hell,,,seeing people long dead, and getting to talk with all kinds of beings.

Thats fine.
I got no problem with a person telling a great story.
And I got no problem if in the reading of such a story a reader takes from the story a healthy life lesson.

The problem I worry about is that a lot of people read these stroies and consider them more important than the bible itself.

There is a very real danger that such people place so much trust in a story of a NDE that they dont notice if the story goes off the rails and starts to teach things against the bible.


Thus, I dont trust any NDE story very much.
I consider them at most "entertaining"

It's possible God would use them to reinforce Biblical faith that a person already has. As long as it agrees with the Word it should be fine.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I first heard of this back when i was in school and the case of a girl named Karen Ann Quinlan that was said to be a hopeless case, yet still alive because it was hard to tell if she was "brain dead" by testing with EEG.

However it was pointed out that the use of EEG to tell if a person is alive or dead is way flawed in that many times you can get a flat-line reading only to see later the person was alive...and you can get a good reading when the subject being tested is jello.

http://www.***-facts.com/view/Facts/...=20417&c_val=2

Alan, science and technology have advanced greatly (and very rapidly). I don't take lightly, a change of heart, for the positive, gained through personal experience. And, I will certainly respect this man's opinion over those who are not as well informed, as he works in this field AND was a unbeliever, before this experience.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by ActRaiser

It's possible God would use them to reinforce Biblical faith that a person already has. As long as it agrees with the Word it should be fine.

again, i dont really care one way or the other.

As long as what a person is saying in their NDE story is in agreement with the Bible it's a non-issue with me.

The thing I do worry about is the ability of such wild stories to sweep people off of sound judgement.

The story can become to such people more important than the bible..

Thats why i tend to just smile when I hear a good NDE story, and consider the whole story just something invented to sell books.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Alan, science and technology have advanced greatly (and very rapidly). I don't take lightly, a change of heart, for the positive, gained through personal experience. And, I will certainly respect this man's opinion over those who are not as well informed, as he works in this field AND was a unbeliever, before this experience.

I have no problem with a story of a NDE that ends with a nice message that is in full agreement with the bible.

People have made up worst stories I guess....

But as for any real "proof" of a real NDE where it can be said the person actually went to heaven?......nope.

I dont really believe any of such things for a moment.

I dont believe the claims...

I dont believe the so-called science behind such wild claims.



If a person claims that had a NDE and it gets them to repent, turn to the Lord, and become Born-again?...then thats fine...

I could think of worse reasons to become a Christian

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

It is about the OP, when the OP was attacked I asked what do you see heaven as...got a one word answer "Jesus".

It is the only correct answer when you think about it.

Heaven is to be "face-to-face" with Jesus.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I have no problem with a story of a NDE that ends with a nice message that is in full agreement with the bible.

People have made up worst stories I guess....

But as for any real "proof" of a real NDE where it can be said the person actually went to heaven?......nope.

I dont really believe any of such things for a moment.

I dont believe the claims...

I dont believe the so-called science behind such wild claims.



If a person claims that had a NDE and it gets them to repent, turn to the Lord, and become Born-again?...then thats fine...

I could think of worse reasons to become a Christian

Alan, as with everything in the spiritual realm, it is all very subjective. It's about personal relationship, bottom line. But, if we are open to it, we can receive inspiration from stories like this.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Alan, as with everything in the spiritual realm, it is all very subjective. It's about personal relationship, bottom line. But, if we are open to it, we can receive inspiration from stories like this.

thats why they all write books and sell them to us.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

thats why they all write books and sell them to us.

Sure.

Of course, Christians never write books...right? lol

I have, personally, purchased, probably, a hundred books, or more, written by, so called, mainstream Christians. They do a lot of book writing, themselves, all claiming to have correct "interpretations" of the Bible, even though many contradict one another.

This is why we need to think for ourselves (and follow the Spirit).. and not allow others to tell us what the Bible means (not even your Pastor or favorite "author").

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Sure.

Of course, Christians never write books...right? .

as i said, the christian book store in your city should have a listing of many such books about people that claim a NDE.

I just find all this both a bit silly, and totally unsupportable.

at best it's mostly a harmless topic for a book.
But it might become a sorce for may questionable teachings...

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

as i said, the christian book store in your city should have a listing of many such books about people that claim a NDE.

I just find all this both a bit silly, and totally unsupportable.

at best it's mostly a harmless topic for a book.
But it might become a sorce for may questionable teachings...

That's fine, Alan. That's your opinion, to which you are en***led.

But, I do know these NDE's change the lives of the people who have them, and often those around them, as well. I just would not, personally, dismiss them so easily.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

That's fine, Alan. That's your opinion, to which you are en***led.

But, I do know these NDE's change the lives of the people who have them, and often those around them, as well. I just would not, personally, dismiss them so easily.

Yes they can change peoples lives.. So can dreams.. Libby that is just what these things are, dreams. For eternal consequences it would be good to set dreams aside and hold tightly to the Word of God and there we are told that it is appointed once for all men to die and after that the judgment (Hebrews 9:27).. By that I proclaim that these are dreams and not reality. That people only die once. That no one comes back with any message only to die again later. There is no such thing as a near Death Experience.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Actually, we are living the dream, James, and the NDE's are a touch of reality.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Actually, we are living the dream, James, and the NDE's are a touch of reality.

And you have authority for that statement where? Most likely your mind or the mind of so other unbeliever.. IHS jim

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

It is the only correct answer when you think about it.

Heaven is to be "face-to-face" with Jesus.

So if joust you and him...allis good? Don't buy it so please do not try to sell it.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

So if joust you and him...allis good? Don't buy it so please do not try to sell it.

When you have a God as weak and unable to be what the Bible says God is:

Psalm 139:7-10
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

Every Christian will be personally with Jesus one on one.. And we all will worship Him together.. I know you hate the idea that Jesus is omnipresent, To us is is a wondrous thing to contemplate.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Originally Posted by James Banta

And you have authority for that statement where? Most likely your mind or the mind of so other unbeliever.. IHS jim

You are starting to sound like a Latter-day Saint, now, James, with talk of "authority".

I have as much authority to speak about God as you do. My "authority" comes from my own experiences with God.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

You are starting to sound like a Latter-day Saint, now, James, with talk of "authority".

I have as much authority to speak about God as you do. My "authority" comes from my own experiences with God.

When I speak of authority I am speaking of the right to say what we say according to God's word.. When I speak of doctrine I speak with authority because what I say is ALWAYS based in God's word.. As you have said your authority comes from your own heart and Mind.. I have shared with you enough that you know I have AUTHORITY to say that the heart is deceitful above all things.. Therefore your authority you use here (My "authority" comes from my own experiences with God) is deceitful because it isn't based on the Bible! IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I have as much authority to speak about God as you do. My "authority" comes from my own experiences with God.

But your god is the one that you made up in your head.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by James Banta

When I speak of authority I am speaking of the right to say what we say according to God's word.. When I speak of doctrine I speak with authority because what I say is ALWAYS based in God's word.. As you have said your authority comes from your own heart and Mind.. I have shared with you enough that you know I have AUTHORITY to say that the heart is deceitful above all things.. Therefore your authority you use here (My "authority" comes from my own experiences with God) is deceitful because it isn't based on the Bible! IHS jim

No, James, you share your "interpretation" of the Bible and what you "believe" to be God's word. It has no more authority than any one else's opinion or real experiences with God.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

No, James, you share your "interpretation" of the Bible and what you "believe" to be God's word.

If you are going to throw around your lame excuse of "interpretation" then you need to tell us which verse you are speaking about so we can discuss it. This excuse is getting really old.

[Libby]

James was not talking about any particular verse. He is talking about having some kind of authority to speak for God. Why don't you ask him to be more specific.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

James was not talking about any particular verse. He is talking about having some kind of authority to speak for God. Why don't you ask him to be more specific.

You keep throwing around "interpretation" next time you do how about giving us a verse so we can look at it together. Then we can look at the surrounding verses and the NT as a whole to get to the bottom of the meaning. Are you up for that?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You keep throwing around "interpretation" next time you do how about giving us a verse so we can look at it together. Then we can look at the surrounding verses and the NT as a whole to get to the bottom of the meaning. Are you up for that?

I already know your interpretations top to bottom, Billy. I'm not interested.

I spent, probably two years or more talking to a Calvinist who really knows the Bible and his particular brand. He was very convincing (at least, to someone like me, who didn't know the Bible very well). I took it very seriously for quite a long while, but eventually couldn't stand the implications of Calvinism, particularly what it implies about God. That system of interpretation has some major problems.

I know you can show me that it's biblical....been there, done that. You may see it as biblical, but it sure doesn't seem "godly".

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I already know your interpretations top to bottom, Billy. I'm not interested.

And you don't agree with the Christian position. Next time you throw out "interpretation" give me a verse so we can look at it.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And you don't agree with the Christian position. Next time you throw out "interpretation" give me a verse so we can look at it.

Like I said, not interested.

That doesn't change the FACT that there are many interpretations of the Bible.