The Problem of Hell

[Libby]

I found this Wiki- article on the Philosophy of Religion that brings up many points, about hell, that I have pondered...and a big reason why I reject the concept of hell, as presented by most conservative Christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_Hell

The "Problem of Hell" is a possible ethical problem related to religions in which portrayals of Hell are ostensibly cruel, and are thus inconsistent with the concepts of a just, moral and omnibenevolent God.[1] The problem of Hell revolves around four key points: it exists in the first place, some people go there, there is no escape, and it is punishment for actions or inactions done on Earth.[2]

The concept that non-believers of a particular religion face ****ation is called special salvation. The concept that all are saved regardless of belief is referred to as universal reconciliation. The minority Christian doctrine that sinners are destroyed rather than punished eternally is referred to as annihilationism or conditional immortality [3]

There are several major issues to the problem of hell. The first is whether the existence of hell is compatible with justice. The second is whether it is compatible with God's mercy, especially as articulated in Christianity. A third issue, particular to Christianity, is whether hell is actually populated, or if God will ultimately restore all immortal souls (universal reconciliation) in the World to Come. Criticisms of the doctrines of hell can focus on the intensity or eternity of its torments, and arguments surrounding all these issues can invoke appeals to the omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence of God. In some aspects, the problem of Hell is similar to the problem of evil, ***uming the suffering of Hell is something God could have prevented; The discussion regarding the problem of evil may thus also be of interest for the problem of Hell.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I found this Wiki- article on the Philosophy of Religion that brings up many points, about hell, that I have pondered...and a big reason why I reject the concept of hell, as presented by most conservative Christians.

What verses in the Bible about Hell do you interpret differently than me to lead to your your disbelief in Hell?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What verses in the Bible about Hell do you interpret differently than me to lead to your your disbelief in Hell?

She doesn't need to quote the Bible she has Wikipedia.. IHS jim

[Libby]

We are all aware of the verses in the Bible that talk about hell, James.

This article from Wiki is a philosophical approach, which is more or less what I have used to come to some of my own conclusions about hell. You know logic...using your brain to engage some of these questions? You guys love to throw that around, when you're talking about Mormonism. Not so much, when it's your favorite beliefs and theories being thrown under the bus.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

This article from Wiki is a philosophical approach, which is more or less what I have used to come to some of my own conclusions about hell. You know logic...using your brain to engage some of these questions?

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Yes, and taking things literally that were not intended as literal would be one of those things that may "seem right unto man".

[Libby]

I can sure see why James was banned. He was being as condescending as ever. Those mods over there don't put up with much of that.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

This article from Wiki is a philosophical approach, which is more or less what I have used to come to some of my own conclusions about hell. You know logic...using your brain to engage some of these questions?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, and taking things literally that were not intended as literal would be one of those things that may "seem right unto man".

Don't you think that your first post above is exactly what Proverbs 14:12 is speaking about?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I can sure see why James was banned. He was being as condescending as ever. Those mods over there don't put up with much of that.

What about me being banned over there. Anything yet?

[Libby]

It looks like you dropped out of that conversation about the 7th or 8th page. Like I said, I don't know that this is the thread where you were banned. You should know that better than I. I don't see any remarks from the mods on any of your posts, so I don't think anything on this particular thread got you banned. Not that I could see. I still haven't read all of it. It's a long thread. I'm on page 12 right now...just skimming.

Knowing you, I'm sure that's not the only thread you ever participated in.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Don't you think that your first post above is exactly what Proverbs 14:12 is speaking about?

No, actually, I think that verse is talking about taking salvation and your life completely into your own hands, without counsel from the Holy Spirit. People who completely turn from God and do things their own way.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

It looks like you dropped out of that conversation about the 7th or 8th page. Like I said, I don't know that this is the thread where you were banned. You should know that better than I. I don't see any remarks from the mods on any of your posts, so I don't think anything on this particular thread got you banned. Not that I could see. I still haven't read all of it. It's a long thread. I'm on page 12 right now...just skimming.

Knowing you, I'm sure that's not the only thread you ever participated in.

I participated in many threads because I had over 3,000 posts. According to what you are saying it looks like they scrubbed the majority of my posts. Why do you think that they did that?

[Libby]

Explained in another thread.

Tell you what, Billy, if you will engage some of the questions brought up in the link I provided above, I will engage you on another thread, regarding baptism.

The "Problem of Hell" is a possible ethical problem related to religions in which portrayals of Hell are ostensibly cruel, and are thus inconsistent with the concepts of a just, moral and omnibenevolent God.

Maybe, you can explain to me, why you believe a loving God could torture most of his creation, eternally, for committing a few sins, in a relatively brief period of time?

How could a loving, benevolent God, who is full of grace and forgiveness, behave in such a manner, do you think? Not only that, but how could it even be considered "just"?

[Libby]

And please don't brush this off with the old chestnut about not understanding the Mind of God. I agree, we do not, but this is major stuff that we should be able to understand, at least, to SOME degree.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

How could a loving, benevolent God, who is full of grace and forgiveness, behave in such a manner, do you think?

God is God and he does whatever He pleases. All of us deserve wrath. God would be just to send everyone of us to Hell. Just like a judge who sentences people to prison--he would be just to sent every single person who is guilty to prison. If that judge allowed a person to go free despite being guilty then that would be meriful even though that person deserved punishment.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Maybe, you can explain to me, why you believe a loving God could torture most of his creation, eternally, for committing a few sins, in a relatively brief period of time?

All of us have sinned against God and all of us deserve punishment.

[alanmolstad]

someone should have taught the kid who wrote that thing that "God is not a man"

And that means that god does not think like we do, nor can we place our ideas of right and wrong onto Him....

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

God is God and he does whatever He pleases. All of us deserve wrath. God would be just to send everyone of us to Hell. Just like a judge who sentences people to prison--he would be just to sent every single person who is guilty to prison. If that judge allowed a person to go free despite being guilty then that would be meriful even though that person deserved punishment.

Okay, one step at a time. ***uming that we all deserve some kind of "punishment" for our sins, how do you justify an eternal punishment for sins committed during a very short period of time? How is that just?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

someone should have taught the kid who wrote that thing that "God is not a man"

And that means that god does not think like we do, nor can we place our ideas of right and wrong onto Him....

This is the kind of answer that is a copout, IMO. Doesn't matter if God is a man or a spirit....I'm talking about what some Christians believe he is capable of doing to his creation.....and why they see that as "God-like"..?

[alanmolstad]

again....trying to place your private morality onto God and judgeing him by it will sooner of later end you up at a point where you simply dont get what god is thinking?


this is the very heart of the book of ***.

The challenge to god that *** makes was NEVER answered...

God simply told *** to trust him by pointing out that humans and God are too different to think the same about anything....
...

Thats the only answer that actually answers by the way...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Okay, one step at a time. ***uming that we all deserve some kind of "punishment" for our sins, how do you justify an eternal punishment for sins committed during a very short period of time? How is that just?

The same reason that people who commit crimes that span a short period of time can spend their entire life in prison.

[alanmolstad]

***'s question is basicly the same as this topic.

a human looks at the way the world is...evil wins, good people die, one sin lands you in hells fire forever, and demands of God that he tell us how this can be fair?


God never answers the way *** wanted....

[Libby]

I trust God.

I don't always trust what man has said about God.

If all you can tell me is that I just need to believe the Bible exactly as interpreted by mainstream Christianity, then you really have nothing new to say to me. Been there, done that. My God is not a some horrible creature who destroys most of his creation in the name of some kind of bogus justice, which isn't justice at all (if you really engage your brain and think about it).

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

. . .trying to place your private morality onto God and judgeing him by it ...

That is exactly right alan--Libby is using what she thinks God should or should not do as a basis for judgement against God.

[Libby]

Okay, I can see both of your brains are on shutdown.

Goodnight.