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Thread: Did Jesus Sin?

  1. #101
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    No double speak now.
    Okay, so the LDSinc HQ go as far back as 1971 saying the (Man) Mormon jesus was sinless, ie perfect.
    Question; how far back do you go with the mormon jesus? Do you say he was sinless as a human, but before that time as a spirit child the LDSinc. doesn't know the answer.
    Question #1; is it now in the LDSinc. Cannon declaring the mormon jesus never, ever, ever sinned.
    Question #3 When was the first recording of LDSinc. Declaring the mormon jesus was sinless?

  2. #102
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    No double speak now.
    Oh, so you think that when you asked:

    RealFakeHair
    Is there a (doctrine) statement from LDS HQ saying your mormon jesus never sinned?
    and I made two posts in response, that there was double speak in my answer?

    Really? Please state exactly what, to your mind, was double speak.

    Okay, so the LDSinc HQ go as far back as 1971 saying the (Man) Mormon jesus was sinless, ie perfect.
    Oh, I bet I could find statements dating back into the 1840s affirming the doctrine that Jesus lived a sinless life. If you need more quotes, just say so.

    Question; how far back do you go with the mormon jesus?
    The Bible goes back as far as "In the beginning," at least. No implication that Jesus sinned there, and LDS agree, of course.

    (When it comes to) before the beginning of the creation of the Earth, LDS are privileged and blessed to have scriptures that fill in some gaps, including accounts of a time before "In the beginning" when Lucifer and his followers rebelled against God. Again: LDS scriptures state that Jesus was ALWAYS faithful and obedient to His Father in all things.

    I will get you some quotes in my next post. Unless you're satisfied that I know what I am talking about and you really don't need verses quoted to prove it.
    Last edited by nrajeffreturns; 03-20-2013 at 07:28 PM.

  3. #103
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    Oh, so you think that when you asked:



    and I made two posts in response, that there was double speak in my answer?

    Really? Please state exactly what, to your mind, was double speak.


    Oh, I bet I could find statements dating back into the 1840s affirming the doctrine that Jesus lived a sinless life. If you need more quotes, just say so.


    The Bible goes back as far as "In the beginning," at least. No implication that Jesus sinned there, and LDS agree, of course.

    (When it comes to) before the beginning of the creation of the Earth, LDS are privileged and blessed to have scriptures that fill in some gaps, including accounts of a time before "In the beginning" when Lucifer and his followers rebelled against God. Again: LDS scriptures state that Jesus was ALWAYS faithful and obedient to His Father in all things.

    I will get you some quotes in my next post. Unless you're satisfied that I know what I am talking about and you really don't need verses quoted to prove it.
    The only problem I have with your statement is teaching that Lucifer and his followers existed in the beginning. The Bible teaches that in the beginning God created the HEAVENS and the EARTH.. At the earth's creation it was formless and void. Would not heaven had been the same? The idea that our spirits were first created in a heaven (preexistence) is countered by the teaching of the Holy Spirit as He gave revelation to the prophet Zechariah. He taught that God created the spirits of men within them.. Unless our bodies are the preexistence Smith and all the teachers of mormonism since that teach that doctrine are flat wrong..

    This is a point in mormon doctrine that just doesn't conform to the word of God.. IHS jim

  4. #104
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    Oh, so you think that when you asked:



    and I made two posts in response, that there was double speak in my answer?

    Really? Please state exactly what, to your mind, was double speak.


    Oh, I bet I could find statements dating back into the 1840s affirming the doctrine that Jesus lived a sinless life. If you need more quotes, just say so.


    The Bible goes back as far as "In the beginning," at least. No implication that Jesus sinned there, and LDS agree, of course.

    (When it comes to) before the beginning of the creation of the Earth, LDS are privileged and blessed to have scriptures that fill in some gaps, including accounts of a time before "In the beginning" when Lucifer and his followers rebelled against God. Again: LDS scriptures state that Jesus was ALWAYS faithful and obedient to His Father in all things.

    I will get you some quotes in my next post. Unless you're satisfied that I know what I am talking about and you really don't need verses quoted to prove it.
    Thank you for your response. However we can't leave it just quite yet. What I mean by double speak, is this. LDS and Christians use the same language, but have different definitions. In LDSinc. doctrine, Jesus and Heavenly Father are two different gods, and it Christians doctrine The Son Jesus and Hevenly Father are one Godhood, and not two different gods. So when we say Jesus never sinned that means the Godhood never sinned. However in mormon speak you may say the mormon jesus never sinned after the age of accountability here on earth, but you can't say or know if he ever sinned before coming to earth, and you can't say his mormon heavenly father ever sinned or not.
    Can you tell me now that your mormon heavenly father never sinned, and this is LDSinc. doctrine?

  5. #105
    Snow Patrol
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    Thank you for your response. However we can't leave it just quite yet. What I mean by double speak, is this. LDS and Christians use the same language, but have different definitions. In LDSinc. doctrine, Jesus and Heavenly Father are two different gods, and it Christians doctrine The Son Jesus and Hevenly Father are one Godhood, and not two different gods.
    You are using doublespeak here in your own definition of doublespeak. You say the LDS believe Jesus and Heavenly Father are two different Gods but then describe your belief as Jesus and Heavenly Father are one Godhood. The definition of Godhood is "The quality or state of being a god; divinity." In that description, as well as our own beliefs, we absolutely believe and teach that Jesus and The Father are part of the Godhead or Godhood as you describe your beliefs.

  6. #106
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Patrol View Post
    You are using doublespeak here in your own definition of doublespeak. You say the LDS believe Jesus and Heavenly Father are two different Gods but then describe your belief as Jesus and Heavenly Father are one Godhood. The definition of Godhood is "The quality or state of being a god; divinity." In that description, as well as our own beliefs, we absolutely believe and teach that Jesus and The Father are part of the Godhead or Godhood as you describe your beliefs.
    Oh, Sir, why, oh, why do you do this. There is but 1 God, now stop that!

  7. #107
    Snow Patrol
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    Oh, Sir, why, oh, why do you do this. There is but 1 God, now stop that!
    You must have had a reason you wrote "Godhood" and not one God. Do you believe God and Godhood have the exact same meaning?

  8. #108
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Patrol View Post
    You must have had a reason you wrote "Godhood" and not one God. Do you believe God and Godhood have the exact same meaning?
    Thats a good question...I think they have mostly the same meaning, but we should look how the words are used in the Bible to see if it matters?...

    I dont think it matters, but we should read the text to confirm this....


    Reminds me of a time I was talking to a JW and they noticed I wrote a sentence about Jesus and used the term "mighty God"

    The JW was attempting to make a big deal that i did not use the term "almighty God"

    I just smiled at this....I mean it is true i used the term "mighty" and not "almighty", but in my context I really dont think I meant there was any difference in the terms.....regardless of what the dictionary might say....

  9. #109
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Patrol View Post
    You must have had a reason you wrote "Godhood" and not one God. Do you believe God and Godhood have the exact same meaning?
    Here is a good example why mormons and christians are like salt and pepper, you can mix them together, but the pepper will always be pepper and the salt will aways be salt. It might make for a good cake, but not religious wedding.
    When a Christian says, Godhood, we mean, The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost, three persons, 1 God, or Godhood or Godhead.
    When a Mormon says, Godhood, that could mean any number between 2 and 2 trillion or more.
    We will never be together on this and that is find, although LDSinc. have come more to the middle over the last 50 + years on the Godhead. The use of the term, (one in mind, power and wisdom and purpous.) Serparate beings, you now call it. So you are getting closer, who knows maybe some day?

  10. #110
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    Here is a good example why mormons and christians are like salt and pepper, you can mix them together, but the pepper will always be pepper and the salt will aways be salt. It might make for a good cake, ........
    ?

    ah yes, many times I have complemented the Bride at a wedding , "I just love all the pepper you added in your wedding cake!"

  11. #111
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    ?

    ah yes, many times I have complemented the Bride at a wedding , "I just love all the pepper you added in your wedding cake!"
    Just don't eat any of my wedding cake. lol

  12. #112
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    Thank you for your response. However we can't leave it just quite yet.
    But you DO accept that it really is LDS doctrine that Jesus is sinless? You admit that it's a double-speaking lie to say that LDS believe that Jesus has ever sinned? Correct?

    What I mean by double speak, is this. LDS and Christians use the same language, but have different definitions. In LDSinc. doctrine
    Well, we might have a case of doublespeak right here: When LDS use the term "church" they use commonly accepted definitions, but anti-LDS people feel some need to twist it and re-define it so they can avoid calling a church a church, and can instead replace it with "inc." as an insulting pejorative, in order to poison the well of mature, meaningful discussion.

    , Jesus and Heavenly Father are two different gods
    Not different, really. Just separate. LDS believe the Bible verse that says that Jesus is like His Father in every way. In fact, LDS seem to believe that verse more than a lot of other Christians do.

    , and it Christians doctrine The Son Jesus and Hevenly Father are one Godhood
    Is there any chance that the term you're trying to use is actually Godhead?

    So when we say Jesus never sinned that means the Godhood never sinned.
    ***uming you can speak on behalf of all Christianity when you say "We believe ___" your claim, when taken to its logical conclusion, seems to lead to the idea that everything Jesus DIDN'T do, the other 2 Persons of the Trinity didn't do as well. So everything God the Father didn't do, God the Son didn't do. Do you see where that reasoning can lead? If you believe that God the Father was never mortal, then you have to believe that Jesus was never mortal either. Such reasoning sounds more like Docetism than Trinitarianism.

  13. #113
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    Not different, really. Just separate. LDS believe the Bible verse that says that Jesus is like His Father in every way. In fact, LDS seem to believe that verse more than a lot of other Christians do.
    Which makes you a polytheist. But the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God.

  14. #114
    RealFakeHair
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    Default 99.44 % sinless!

    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    But you DO accept that it really is LDS doctrine that Jesus is sinless? You admit that it's a double-speaking lie to say that LDS believe that Jesus has ever sinned? Correct?


    Well, we might have a case of doublespeak right here: When LDS use the term "church" they use commonly accepted definitions, but anti-LDS people feel some need to twist it and re-define it so they can avoid calling a church a church, and can instead replace it with "inc." as an insulting pejorative, in order to poison the well of mature, meaningful discussion.


    Not different, really. Just separate. LDS believe the Bible verse that says that Jesus is like His Father in every way. In fact, LDS seem to believe that verse more than a lot of other Christians do.


    Is there any chance that the term you're trying to use is actually Godhead?


    ***uming you can speak on behalf of all Christianity when you say "We believe ___" your claim, when taken to its logical conclusion, seems to lead to the idea that everything Jesus DIDN'T do, the other 2 Persons of the Trinity didn't do as well. So everything God the Father didn't do, God the Son didn't do. Do you see where that reasoning can lead? If you believe that God the Father was never mortal, then you have to believe that Jesus was never mortal either. Such reasoning sounds more like Docetism than Trinitarianism.
    LDSinc. only believe the mormon jesus was sinless from about 8 or so years of age. I mean you do agree the mormon jesus could have sinned before the age of 8 and not be held against him, correct?
    Anyways, this is where LDSinc. have a problem, on the one hand they say a mormon male with a temple recommend who obeys all the rules and commandment of the LDSinc. HQ, and so forth can one day in the future become just like the mormon jesus and or mormon heavenly father. Own your own planet, just don't name it Kobol or try and steal any of Joseph Smith jr, or Brigham Youngs virgins.
    If you do all this and with a little luck you can be called a mormon god too.
    Now here is the problem with Joseph Smith jr. imaginary mind religion, you can't make it to LDSinc. godhood. It is impossible if has you believe the mormon jesus did not sin after the age of 8 here on earth and as you know in order to become a mormon god you gotta follow the mormon jesus example and be sinless too.
    Just thank for a moment, your religion is a lie, a ****able lie, your whole system is based on a mountain of fraudulent hurdles. For every loop a good mormon male jumps through there is another one just ahead and more difficult to achive, and in the end the golden ring is just one step to far.
    Do you even see how sad that is?
    Do you ever feel ashame of your faith in Joseph Smith jr.?
    Your whole system is a fraude and an abuse of every young boy from the age of 8 and until death, the impossible dream of a lie called Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
    How sad indeed.

  15. #115
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    LDSinc. only believe the mormon jesus was sinless from about 8 or so years of age.
    That could only be true if ANTI-LDS, Inc., to which YOU belong, believes that Jesus and Satan are the same person. In other words, you made a false statement that any LDS here would also condemn as false.

    I mean you do agree the mormon jesus could have sinned before the age of 8 and not be held against him, correct?
    Maybe you should read what Christ's words in the Book of Mormon say about your false idea, and then you won't feel like ever trotting your false statement out in public again.


    Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin;
    (Book of Mormon | Moroni 8:8)


    Just think for a moment, your false statement is a lie, a ****able lie, your whole system is based on a mountain of fraudulent accusations against the LDS.

    Do you even see how sad that is?

    Do you ever feel ashamed of your faith in Ed Decker?

    Your whole system is a fraud and an abuse of every gullible person who believes the false things you say about the LDS, the impossible dream of a lie called anti-LDSism.
    How sad indeed.

  16. #116
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    That could only be true if ANTI-LDS, Inc., to which YOU belong, believes that Jesus and Satan are the same person. In other words, you made a false statement that any LDS here would also condemn as false.
    I was raised LDS and I don't recall ever being taught that Jesus sinned.

  17. #117
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I was raised LDS and I don't recall ever being taught that Jesus sinned.
    Thank you. Any chance Real Fake will believe you? Because he doesn't seem to believe it when I tell him.

  18. #118
    Libby
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    I wasn't taught that, either.

    But, I have seen Aaron's videos and some LDS do seem to believe it's possible. But, they are surmising that on their own, because it's really not taught.

  19. #119
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I wasn't taught that, either.

    But, I have seen Aaron's videos and some LDS do seem to believe it's possible. But, they are surmising that on their own, because it's really not taught.
    Let me expand on my what I said earlier. I was never taught that Jesus sinned. However when speaking about the Father it wasn't so clear especially with the Lorenzo Snow couplet, and that is perhaps why some LDS believe that te father could have sinned.

  20. #120
    TheSword99
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    The lds are never clear on many of their teachings. Sometimes they "appear" to be on both sides of the issues. They do teach that God the Father had to "work out his own salvation." That says that He was capable of sinning. But the lds will never admit that. The fact is, if God and Jesus were once men like us, that means they sinned just as well as we All do. So why the denials?

  21. #121
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    The fact is, if God and Jesus were once men like us, that means they sinned just as well as we All do. So why the denials?
    I think that you will find that most LDS believe that Jesus was sin free. However with the Father it is not as clear because this topic --at least when I was LDS--wasn't something that came up other than the odd occasion such as when discussing the Lorenzo Snow couplet.

  22. #122
    TheSword99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I think that you will find that most LDS believe that Jesus was sin free. However with the Father it is not as clear because this topic --at least when I was LDS--wasn't something that came up other than the odd occasion such as when discussing the Lorenzo Snow couplet.
    Like I said, the lds are rarely clear on any of their peculiar beliefs.

  23. #123
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I think that you will find that most LDS believe that Jesus was sin free. However with the Father it is not as clear because this topic --at least when I was LDS--wasn't something that came up other than the odd occasion such as when discussing the Lorenzo Snow couplet.
    That seems pretty accurate, except it's not at all hard to conclude that Jesus' Father is as sinless as Jesus is.

    1. Jesus never sinned.
    2. Jesus said He did only what He saw His Father do.
    3. The Bible says that Jesus is like His Father in every way.

    Ergo, all the scriptural evidence points toward Jesus' Father being as sinless as Jesus is.
    And there is no evidence that would suggest otherwise. There might be conjecture and speculation by some Aaronites or by people wanting to play his game, but again: No evidence.

  24. #124
    Snow Patrol
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    When a Christian says, Godhood, we mean, The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost, three persons, 1 God, or Godhood or Godhead.
    Ok, so you use these words interchangably, correct? God, Godhood, Godhead. To you there is no difference in the definition?

  25. #125
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    That seems pretty accurate, except it's not at all hard to conclude that Jesus' Father is as sinless as Jesus is.

    1. Jesus never sinned.
    2. Jesus said He did only what He saw His Father do.
    3. The Bible says that Jesus is like His Father in every way.

    Ergo, all the scriptural evidence points toward Jesus' Father being as sinless as Jesus is.
    And there is no evidence that would suggest otherwise. There might be conjecture and speculation by some Aaronites or by people wanting to play his game, but again: No evidence.
    But if you take the Lorenzo Snow couplet as written one could conclude that the Father sinned.

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