Is Being Born-Again Irrelevant?

[glm1978]

What is interesting is that there are more and more people calling themselves "born again Mormons." Yet they believe in salvation by faith alone in Christ alone without all the added stuff of the LDS church, just as Paul taught.

[James Banta]

[Sir;139721]If being spiritually reborn is 100% of God's doing, as you claimed above, then if people do not submit to God then it is God's fault.

You can't have it both ways.

There you go again judging God for what He knows about us instead of believing what He has done.. He made it possible for all to come and receive life. But because He hasn't forced you and for that matter all mankind to accept Him you want to blame Him because He knows who will and who will not submit to His grace.. He has chosen all who will come to Him. Those that come to Him He will in NO WAY CAST OUT.. But those that won't come by an act of their own will are lost because of God's choice? No, That is their own doing and by an act of God's grace He allows men to reject Him and His gifts.. That is an extreme act of His love as He sees the consequences of that choice.

Actually, people can read for themselves what "exactly" I said (the beauty of written language), and it isn't what you wanted to interpret it to be.

It can be the pits too when your words convey ****able thought such as "if people do not submit to God then it is God's fault."

Here's a BTW of my own:

BTW, it is funny that you had to add an "attack" on me, considering this is the thread where the LDS are called the attackers and yet it is the LDS-critics that seem to be the ones who cannot post without adding a little jab. Interesting.

Unless you want to make a statement that supports the EVIL doctrines of mormonism against the Biblical statements made about any point made here by Christians this statement it is worthless.. Here, let me help you with an example.. Mormonism teaches a gospel of grace and works. Correct? but the Bible teaches that such a thing is not possible (Romans 11:6).. But I would have to believe that you see that p***age as yet example of a p***age not to be taken literally? IHS jim

By the way being wrong is not a personal weakness ot a lack of character it is just an indication that you are not willing to conform to the teachings of the Holy Spirit and receive His truth..

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Sir

Of course.

You Are???? Have you already "endured to the end in righteousness".. When I saw this included in a list of what LDS believes makes a person Born Again it almost made me cry.. Now here you are claiming to be righteous in your own efforts.. Soon again because you are so righteous in your life by your own actions I suspect because I claim no righteousness through my own actions, you will call me self righteous as many LDS already have.. Are you sure you have been Born Again? That you have already endured to the end in righteousness?

Is this not what you said about being Born Again?

Change of heart.
Recognition of Jesus as our Savior and our need for Him and His atonement.
A desire to follow Him.
A willingness to mourn with those who mourn.
Comfort those that stand in need of comfort.
To follow the example of Jesus and be baptized for the remission of sins.
To receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Change of heart.
Recognition of Jesus as our Savior and our need for Him and His atonement.
A desire to follow Him.
A willingness to mourn with those who mourn.
Comfort those that stand in need of comfort.
To follow the example of Jesus and be baptized for the remission of sins.
To receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
To place our faith in Jesus, obey his commandments, and to endure to the end.

Did you say that it is required to place our faith in Jesus, obey his commandments, and to endure to the end. When did you do this in it's completion? If that is a requirement, as you stated then you are not yet born again..

IHS jim

[Sir]

Originally Posted by James Banta

There you go again judging God for what He knows about us instead of believing what He has done.. He made it possible for all to come and receive life. But because He hasn't forced you and for that matter all mankind to accept Him you want to blame Him because He knows who will and who will not submit to His grace.. He has chosen all who will come to Him. Those that come to Him He will in NO WAY CAST OUT.. But those that won't come by an act of their own will are lost because of God's choice? No, That is their own doing and by an act of God's grace He allows men to reject Him and His gifts.. That is an extreme act of His love as He sees the consequences of that choice.

Yours is a case of heads I win, tails you lose scenerio. That's why it is pointless to debate it with you. You make the claim that only God can allow someone to accept Him by giving him His Holy Spirit. But then you say that if God DOESN'T choose that person to be saved then it is the fault of the person for not choosing God.

This isn't judging God, as you are quick to accuse. It is pointing out the flaw in the theology you are peddling. One must choose God to be saved, but one cannot choose God unless God chooses him. So your own theology means that God created the majority of his human creations simply to cast them into Hell and burn in torment forever.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by glm1978

What is interesting is that there are more and more people calling themselves "born again Mormons." Yet they believe in salvation by faith alone in Christ alone without all the added stuff of the LDS church, just as Paul taught.

Anyone, mormon or not calls upon the Name of Jesus of the Holy Bible, and believes as in St John 3:16, in their hearts and mind they are IMHO born again, by the Holy Spirit of the Holy Bible, amen.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Sir

Yours is a case of heads I win, tails you lose scenerio. That's why it is pointless to debate it with you. You make the claim that only God can allow someone to accept Him by giving him His Holy Spirit. But then you say that if God DOESN'T choose that person to be saved then it is the fault of the person for not choosing God.

This isn't judging God, as you are quick to accuse. It is pointing out the flaw in the theology you are peddling. One must choose God to be saved, but one cannot choose God unless God chooses him. So your own theology means that God created the majority of his human creations simply to cast them into Hell and burn in torment forever.

I see that you have again ignored my questions. So I will repeat one of them.


How do you explain that according to Mormonism, two of the kingdoms of glory do not even include the presence of (or access to) God the Father. For Christians, spending eternity separated from the presence of God is not salvation; it is ****ation.

[TheSword99]

The reason why the lds on here say "of course" they're born again is because they erroneously believe they are "safe" because they belong to the mormon church. They have been taught that upon death they will automatically go to one of 3 levels of heavens. Hell is something they believe they are exempt from.

They make the claim to be the fastest growing church, yet Jesus said the gate to heaven is narrow and only a few will find it.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

The reason why the lds on here say "of course" they're born again is because they erroneously believe they are "safe" because they belong to the mormon church. They have been taught that upon death they will automatically go to one of 3 levels of heavens. Hell is something they believe they are exempt from.

That is your opinion. As a Mormon, I can safely say that my beliefs and views are not what you said above.

They make the claim to be the fastest growing church, yet Jesus said the gate to heaven is narrow and only a few will find it.

Seems like a non-sequitur. But here is a response: the LDS church doesn't clam to be the fastest growing church, but it is usually listed in the top 10 of the lists of fastest growing churches.

Secondly, if there are roughly 14 million members of the LDS church, that would be MUCH fewer than the hundreds of millions of other Christians. So you are actually making the argument FOR Mormonism in your attempted attack above.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Sir

Yours is a case of heads I win, tails you lose scenerio. That's why it is pointless to debate it with you. You make the claim that only God can allow someone to accept Him by giving him His Holy Spirit. But then you say that if God DOESN'T choose that person to be saved then it is the fault of the person for not choosing God.

This isn't judging God, as you are quick to accuse. It is pointing out the flaw in the theology you are peddling. One must choose God to be saved, but one cannot choose God unless God chooses him. So your own theology means that God created the majority of his human creations simply to cast them into Hell and burn in torment forever.

I didn't say that God doesn't chose us.. He does based on knowing that we will accept His grace and receive the life Jesus offers all men based on His work completed on the cross.. Maybe you should respond to me any more you don't seem able to understand the truth I tell you about who and what God is.. If you can't understand that God is not a being locked into time and He actually knows the beginning and the end because He is present is all time then you aren't able to understand the truth about what I AM that I AM is all about.. If you can't understand that you can't know God and you deny yourself eternal life:

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So until you are able to at least understand the timeless nature of God you should even speak about Him.. Even our Jr Church children can understand this simple attribute of God.. IHS jim

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Sir

That is your opinion. As a Mormon, I can safely say that my beliefs and views are not what you said above.



Seems like a non-sequitur. But here is a response: the LDS church doesn't clam to be the fastest growing church, but it is usually listed in the top 10 of the lists of fastest growing churches.

Secondly, if there are roughly 14 million members of the LDS church, that would be MUCH fewer than the hundreds of millions of other Christians. So you are actually making the argument FOR Mormonism in your attempted attack above.

How conveniently you ignore the fact that those statistics are never accurate because it is not known exactly how many have left the lds church because having one's name removed is a long tedious process and full of red tape that many never bother, they just leave. So the stats include them as still members.

Then you have those who no longer believe in the lds church but stay because they fear losing family, ***s, etc. This is because of the control your church tries to wield on its members. Its the same with the JWs who shun those who leave. The lds just labels them apostates who will join satan in the lake of fire...

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Sir

That is your opinion. As a Mormon, I can safely say that my beliefs and views are not what you said above.

Then why don't you share what your beliefs and views are. Do mormons believe they could go to hell? Is it possible? Or do they not believe in the Holy Bible's teaching on hell? Do you believe you will automatically go to some level of heaven? Is that the lds salvation that all will be resurrected?

Two of these kingdoms of glory do not even include the presence of (or access to) God the Father. For Christians, spending eternity separated from God's presence is not salvation; it is ****ation. Which is what the Scriptures teaches. You guys don't even have ***urance of exactly where you will end up. Being born again means nothing less than the fullness of salvation. We Christians have ***urance that we are acceptable to the Lord. Whoever has the Son, has life. (1 John 5:11-13)

[glm1978]

Originally Posted by Sir

That is your opinion. As a Mormon, I can safely say that my beliefs and views are not what you said above.



Seems like a non-sequitur. But here is a response: the LDS church doesn't clam to be the fastest growing church, but it is usually listed in the top 10 of the lists of fastest growing churches.

Secondly, if there are roughly 14 million members of the LDS church, that would be MUCH fewer than the hundreds of millions of other Christians. So you are actually making the argument FOR Mormonism in your attempted attack above.

Since Mormonism teaches that non LDS will have a chance to hear the Mormon gospel after death, wouldn't that mean many would get "saved" and end up in one of the three heavens? Seems like hell will be nearly empty. But the LDS does not believe in the biblical hell. So, how is it that many are headed there?

The bible is true, hell is real and many will end up there.

[glm1978]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

How conveniently you ignore the fact that those statistics are never accurate because it is not known exactly how many have left the lds church because having one's name removed is a long tedious process and full of red tape that many never bother, they just leave. So the stats include them as still members.

Then you have those who no longer believe in the lds church but stay because they fear losing family, ***s, etc. This is because of the control your church tries to wield on its members. Its the same with the JWs who shun those who leave. The lds just labels them apostates who will join satan in the lake of fire...

It took nearly 2 years before they finally removed my name. I knew of a lady who had to hire legal ***istance to force them to take her name off. This is what I love about the Christian churches. You can leave one and join another and nobody thinks twice or tries to exert any control. The Christian churches are basically united in the tenets of Christianity.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by glm1978

It took nearly 2 years before they finally removed my name. I knew of a lady who had to hire legal ***istance to force them to take her name off. This is what I love about the Christian churches. You can leave one and join another and nobody thinks twice or tries to exert any control. The Christian churches are basically united in the tenets of Christianity.

It was easy for me.. I took a Christian tract to all my neighbors. That got their attention and I was out completely in one month..

One door and only one and yet it's sides are two. I'm on the inside on which side are you.. then an invitation to come to Jesus and be forgiven. And because of that a charge of apostasy was served in me.. I admit being an apostate from mormonism, but from Jesus.. NEVER, in fact they are the ones in apostasy.. IHS jim

[Sir]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Maybe you should respond to me any more you don't seem able to understand the truth I tell you about who and what God is..

Maybe I "should"?

So until you are able to at least understand the timeless nature of God you should even speak about Him

I "should"?

If your position is that people "should[n't]" speak about things that they do not understand, you would be left mute and we shouldn't see another post from you ever again.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

How conveniently you ignore the fact that those statistics are never accurate because it is not known exactly how many have left the lds church because having one's name removed is a long tedious process and full of red tape that many never bother, they just leave. So the stats include them as still members.

Then you have those who no longer believe in the lds church but stay because they fear losing family, ***s, etc. This is because of the control your church tries to wield on its members. Its the same with the JWs who shun those who leave. The lds just labels them apostates who will join satan in the lake of fire...

The point was 14 million is FEWER than hundreds of millions. If there are only 5 million believing Mormons of the 14 million, that would be even FEWER, thus your contention that Jesus claimed that there would be few who are actually saved bodes even BETTER for the LDS.

I don't think you thought this through to the logical end.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Sir

The point was 14 million is FEWER than hundreds of millions. If there are only 5 million believing Mormons of the 14 million, that would be even FEWER, thus your contention that Jesus claimed that there would be few who are actually saved bodes even BETTER for the LDS.

I don't think you thought this through to the logical end.

Every 18 year old mormon boy wants to be chosen to go to LaBule France, but most end up in places like Detroit.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Sir

The point was 14 million is FEWER than hundreds of millions. If there are only 5 million believing Mormons of the 14 million, that would be even FEWER, thus your contention that Jesus claimed that there would be few who are actually saved bodes even BETTER for the LDS.

I don't think you thought this through to the logical end.

No worry, I am ***ured of my salvation which no lds can ever be. Salvation is not found in a church nor through any consent of Joe Smith. Nor will there be any 2nd chances after death. It's one fallacy after another that you have bought into.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

No worry, I am ***ured of my salvation which no lds can ever be.

Glad you feel that you were part of the lucky lotto. DId you also play the Powerball yesterday?

Salvation is not found in a church nor through any consent of Joe Smith. Nor will there be any 2nd chances after death. It's one fallacy after another that you have bought into.

Given your beliefs above, it is apparently you that has bought into many fallacies and misinformation about the LDS. But such is to be expected from those who are the most vocal about attacking it.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Every 18 year old mormon boy wants to be chosen to go to LaBule France, but most end up in places like Detroit.

Funny, I've never met a boy who had a desire to go to LaBule, France.

Missionaries go where they are needed.

God's children live in Detroit too.

I hear your racist undertones, though, in making the comparison.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Sir

Funny, I've never met a boy who had a desire to go to LaBule, France.

Missionaries go where they are needed.

God's children live in Detroit too.

I hear your racist undertones, though, in making the comparison.

This is LaBule, France



This is Detroit



How could wanting to be sent to LaBule instead of Detroit possible be seen as racist? Are you saying that only caucasians are allowed in LaBule while only non caucasians are in Detroit?

By the photo evidence, by reputation I for one would rather be almost anywhere other than Detroit.. Knock off the name calling.. Racism has much more to do with the acts of mormonism than does a desire to be in a beautiful place like LaBule instead of a city that looks like the aftermath of a war as does Detroit.. IHS jim

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Sir

Funny, I've never met a boy who had a desire to go to LaBule, France.

Missionaries go where they are needed.

God's children live in Detroit too.

I hear your racist undertones, though, in making the comparison.

Don't even go there with the racist card. Your church had some teachings that were based on racist beliefs.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Sir

Glad you feel that you were part of the lucky lotto. DId you also play the Powerball yesterday?



Given your beliefs above, it is apparently you that has bought into many fallacies and misinformation about the LDS. But such is to be expected from those who are the most vocal about attacking it.

Then you mock the word of God.

“And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” (1 John 5:11-13)

[Sir]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

Then you mock the word of God.

“And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” (1 John 5:11-13)

No, people who falsly claim to be securely saved right now are the mockers of God. Many "Christians" fall away who once said they were "saved", but the only excuse that you can give is that "they just weren't really saved in the first place". You give yourself a false sense of security and then mock God by thinking that once you've uttered the words "I believe in Jesus" that nothing you do after that will have any impact on your salvation.

That's the real mockery.

[jdjhere]

Sir stated: "No, people who falsly claim to be securely saved right now are the mockers of God."

I don't mock God and I KNOW I am saved, Sir, but I am eternally grateful to Jesus Christ for saving me and what He suffered FOR ME on the cross. He offered it and I accepted it. I don't mock God, I am only grateful for Eternal Life and that Jesus Christ loved me enough to do it. It only humbles me and makes me love Him.

(By the way, did you ever get that proof for me that the artifacts you were trying to sell people were indeed from Lamanites and Nephites?? You know, the war clubs and pottery?? Just curious...)