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Thread: Is Being Born-Again Irrelevant?

  1. #176
    dberrie2000
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    dberrie----Is this a condition of belief?


    Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)


    14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---It is not a condition of faith but rather a result of those who are saved.
    dberrie--

    Billyray's theology: They endure to the end because they are saved.

    Biblical theology---they are made partakers with Christ because they endured to the end.


    Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)


    4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

    5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

    6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;
    seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

    8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

    Ephesians 1
    11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
    12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
    13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
    14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

    Romans 8
    30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

    1 John 2:19
    19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
    How are you using those scriptures to somehow annul the fact the scriptures state that God gives His grace to those who obey Him? That enduring to the end is a requirement of being partakers of Christ?

    Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)


    14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
    Last edited by dberrie2000; 05-25-2013 at 11:17 AM.

  2. #177
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    How are you using those scriptures to somehow annul the fact the scriptures state that God gives His grace to those who obey Him?
    Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

  3. #178
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post





    How are you using those scriptures to somehow annul the fact the scriptures state that God gives His grace to those who obey Him? That enduring to the end is a requirement of being partakers of Christ?

    Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)


    14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

    And what is our confidence? It is our good works? our obedience? Or is it Jesus, who makes us confidence of our salvation by His grace through faith and even that not of ourselves.. If we hold onto that faith we have confidence that we are that we are already have eternal life.

    1 John 5:13
    These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


    I have shown you several times now how we can be obedient though the imputed righteousness of Jesus and the how the righteousness built on our own obedience is nothing more than SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS. You haven't said a word about that. All you have done is continue to beat the obedience drum. Again I say that in your own acts you are NOT righteous. No more than Isaiah who was a great prophet, a man who walked closely to God and yet what did he say of his own righteousness?

    Isaiah 6:5
    Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.


    In seeing the Lord Isaiah didn't feel special of exalted, no he said "WOE is we!" and why because he could see his sin clearly. If Isaiah the prophet saw his sin when he compared himself to the Lord how do you see your works as obedience? IHS jim
    Last edited by James Banta; 05-29-2013 at 08:05 AM.

  4. #179
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    That enduring to the end is a requirement of being partakers of christ?
    1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

  5. #180
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Hebrews 3:14---For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
    1 John 3:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

  6. #181
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Hebrews 3:14---For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    1 John 3:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
    Which only confirms that enduring to the end is connected to being saved.


    2 Peter 3:17---King James Version (KJV)


    17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness



    Galatians 5:4---King James Version (KJV)


    4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


    If once-saved-always-saved is a true doctrine--then how can one fall from grace?

  7. #182
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Which only confirms that enduring to the end is connected to being saved.
    True. OSAS. Those who are tares will fall away.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

  8. #183
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Which only confirms that enduring to the end is connected to being saved.


    2 Peter 3:17---King James Version (KJV)


    17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness



    Galatians 5:4---King James Version (KJV)


    4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


    If once-saved-always-saved is a true doctrine--then how can one fall from grace?
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    True. OSAS. Those who are tares will fall away.
    Again--if once-saved-always-saved is a true doctrine--then how could one fall from grace?

  9. #184
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Again--if once-saved-always-saved is a true doctrine--then how could one fall from grace?
    Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you *****WILL*****carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

  10. #185
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    [/B]


    And what is our confidence? It is our good works? our obedience? Or is it Jesus, who makes us confidence of our salvation by His grace through faith and even that not of ourselves.. If we hold onto that faith we have confidence that we are that we are already have eternal life.

    1 John 5:13
    These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


    I have shown you several times now how we can be obedient though the imputed righteousness of Jesus and the how the righteousness built on our own obedience is nothing more than SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS. You haven't said a word about that. All you have done is continue to beat the obedience drum. Again I say that in your own acts you are NOT righteous. No more than Isaiah who was a great prophet, a man who walked closely to God and yet what did he say of his own righteousness?

    Isaiah 6:5
    Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.


    In seeing the Lord Isaiah didn't feel special of exalted, no he said "WOE is we!" and why because he could see his sin clearly. If Isaiah the prophet saw his sin when he compared himself to the Lord how do you see your works as obedience? IHS jim
    DBerry:
    As it is in many posts I submit here the truth of the word of the Holy Spirit shuts you down completely.. You should listen to His teachings instead of the lies purported by Joseph Smith.. IHS jim
    Last edited by James Banta; 05-29-2013 at 08:06 AM.

  11. #186
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
    Again--how are you using those scriptures to somehow annul the fact the scriptures state that God gives His grace to those who obey Him? That enduring to the end is a requirement of being partakers of Christ?


    Acts 5:32----King James Version (KJV)

    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


    Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)

    14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


    Billyray--the fact is--the scriptures have God giving His grace to those who obey Him. No one is arguing that it is by the works of the law we are saved--only that what does save--His grace--goes to those who obey Him--and only those who obey Him:


    2 Thessalonians 1:8-9----King James Version (KJV)


    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


    1 Peter 4:17---King James Version (KJV)


    17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

  12. #187
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Again--how are you using those scriptures to somehow annul the fact the scriptures state that God gives His grace to those who obey Him? That enduring to the end is a requirement of being partakers of Christ?
    Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

    DB tell me what role works play in grace according to this verse. I am watching to see if you address this verse or if you try to be deceptive in avoiding it.

  13. #188
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Again--how are you using those scriptures to somehow annul the fact the scriptures state that God gives His grace to those who obey Him? That enduring to the end is a requirement of being partakers of Christ?


    Acts 5:32----King James Version (KJV)

    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


    Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)

    14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


    Billyray--the fact is--the scriptures have God giving His grace to those who obey Him. No one is arguing that it is by the works of the law we are saved--only that what does save--His grace--goes to those who obey Him--and only those who obey Him:


    2 Thessalonians 1:8-9----King James Version (KJV)


    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;



    1 Peter 4:17---King James Version (KJV)

    17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

    DB tell me what role works play in grace according to this verse. I am watching to see if you address this verse or if you try to be deceptive in avoiding it.
    Paul was addressing works of the Mosaic Law in your verse. Could you explain for us how that somehow cancels out the fact that the scriptures have God giving His grace unto life to those who obey Him--such as the ones I quoted above?

    Could you explain to us--if Paul did believe that acts of obedience to Jesus Christ was not necessary for His grace unto life--then why would he address it in such a manner as this?


    Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)


    5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

    6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

    Paul also believed all men would be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation.


    The works included disobedience which would prevent one from entering the kingdom as well:


    Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


    Could you explain for us--if works are not a part of salvation--then why would Paul make such a long list of works that would hinder us from entering eternal life?


    1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)


    19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

  14. #189
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Paul was addressing works of the Mosaic Law in your verse.
    Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

    And according to this verse what role did works play in grace?

  15. #190
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

    And according to this verse what role did works play in grace?
    The Mosaic Law(works, to Paul) did not play any role in grace unto life. But obedience to the gospel does:


    Acts 2:38----King James Version (KJV)

    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


    God's grace for our obedience.

  16. #191
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The Mosaic Law(works, to Paul) did not play any role in grace unto life. But obedience to the gospel does:
    Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

    And according to this verse what role did works play in grace?

  17. #192
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The Mosaic Law(works, to Paul) did not play any role in grace unto life. But obedience to the gospel does:
    Can you tell me anyone who lived under the law who was saved?

  18. #193
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

    And according to this verse what role did works play in grace?
    You are circling, Billyray.

    Again--the Mosaic Law(works) does not play any part in His grace unto life.

  19. #194
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Can you tell me anyone who lived under the law who was saved?
    All who followed Christ. All who lived under the Mosaic Law had to await the day of the Atonement before they could inherit life--as the doors of eternal life were not opened for mankind until then. All awaited in Paradise who would receive this grace at the time of the Savior's Redemption--where He shed His Blood and died for the sins of the whole world--and redeemed them from the Fall.

  20. #195
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    All who followed Christ.
    So salvation was possible under the Law. Why do you keep saying that it was not possible?

  21. #196
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---All who followed Christ. All who lived under the Mosaic Law had to await the day of the Atonement before they could inherit life--as the doors of eternal life were not opened for mankind until then. All awaited in Paradise who would receive this grace at the time of the Savior's Redemption--where He shed His Blood and died for the sins of the whole world--and redeemed them from the Fall.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So salvation was possible under the Law. Why do you keep saying that it was not possible?
    The Atonement of Christ was a NT event. Please reread my quote.


    Hebrews 10:4---King James Version (KJV)

    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

  22. #197
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The Atonement of Christ was a NT event.
    Right. And how does that even remotely address what I said. Salvation was possibly by keeping the Law--which if you did not know was an OT event.

  23. #198
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Again--the Mosaic Law(works) does not play any part in His grace unto life.
    Do you believe that any of the commandments that they kept and sacrifices that performed under the Law in any way covered their sin?

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