Repentance

[Sir]

Since I was kind of bored tonight, I thought I would take James Banta's conjecture (in red) and his issues with LDS repentance and add a little commentary with my questions to YOU, the non-LDS here:

Originally Posted by James Banta

The sinner must have "Sorrow for Sin"

Doesn't seem like a problem. If one is to repent of their sins they must feel a genuine sense of sorrow, an understanding of what they did that was an offense to God. To be healed from sickness one must first recognize they are sick.

What is wrong with this step according to you non-LDS?

Originally Posted by James Banta

Then "Confess" the sin. If it's minor God can handle it but if it's a big sin like adultery you have to tell a man..

Yes, we must confess our sins to God so He can forgive us. When LDS confess more grave sins (like adultry, as James knows about quite well) to the church leaders, it is not in order to receive any type of forgiveness since they have not the power to forgive. It is to receive their guidance and help in returning to the path of God and being an upstanding member of the church of God here on earth.

What is wrong with this step according to non-LDS?

Originally Posted by James Banta

You have to stop sinning "Abandon Sin". No one has ever done this so my guess is that not a single mormon ever dies with a clean conscience.

If someone is to repent of adultry (James), then it makes perfect sense that true repentance requires that the person refrain from committing adultry again. When you repented of your adultry, James, did you quit doing it? Or are you of the opinion that one can simply ask for forgiveness of adultry on Friday and then go out and do it again on Sa****ay and then ask God for forgieness again in Sunday, only to go do it again on Monday?

That you claim "no one has ever abandoned sin" is a gross misrepresentation and misunderstanding on your part of the principle of repentance and forgiveness.

What is wrong with the idea of stopping the sin that is being repented of according to non-LDS?

Originally Posted by James Banta

The sinner MUST make Res***ution.. How do you make res***ution for murder or adultery?

When we repent, we need to correct the wrong. If I steal a bike from my neighbor, I am not truly repenting if I simply ask for God's forgiveness and then continue riding my newly ill-gotten bike in front of my neighbor's house.

Some sins cannot be restored, as James suggests, which is why we always need the atonement of Jesus. His atonement paid the price of our sins and it is through His atonement that the payment for the res***ution is made.

What is wrong with the principle of righting a wrong as part of our repentance process according to the non-LDS?

Originally Posted by James Banta

You must change your ways to "Righteous Living".. Again no one has ever done this so again not mormon can be saved..

When one truly seeks reprentance, they do so with a spirit of wanting to follow God better, to become more like Him. That requires that we change aspects of our lifestyle in order to conform more to the path that God wants us to follow. If I repent of frequenting strip clubs, I am not truly repentant if I do not change my lifestyle and stop going to those strip clubs.

What is wrong with the principle of changing your lifestyle to be more righteous as part of the repentance process according to the non-LDS?

[jdjhere]

Sir- We get what you are saying here and I for one would be happy to dialogue with you but have in the past and it went nowhere. Just let me make a point- when you attack someone personally about a sin they may (or may not have) committed, all it does is make your self-righteous at***ude even more apparent. Don't cast stones, especially in public, before you straighten up your own house.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

Sir- We get what you are saying here and I for one would be happy to dialogue with you but have in the past and it went nowhere.

Fair enough. Feel free to remove yourself from the thread then.

Just let me make a point- when you attack someone personally about a sin they may (or may not have) committed, all it does is make your self-righteous at***ude even more apparent. Don't cast stones, especially in public, before you straighten up your own house.

We are all sinners. Using someone's experience with a sin (since they were the ones the brought up that particular sin) isn't really an attack. It's common knowledge here that James was once an adulterer. Since he is open about that and since we are talking about repentance, it is apropros to using that in order to help paint the picture that James is trying to convey about the principles of true repentance.

I appreciate your attempt at preaching not to cast stones while simultaneously calling me self-righteous. No irony there. None.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Sir

Fair enough. Feel free to remove yourself from the thread then.



We are all sinners. Using someone's experience with a sin (since they were the ones the brought up that particular sin) isn't really an attack. It's common knowledge here that James was once an adulterer. Since he is open about that and since we are talking about repentance, it is apropros to using that in order to help paint the picture that James is trying to convey about the principles of true repentance.

I appreciate your attempt at preaching not to cast stones while simultaneously calling me self-righteous. No irony there. None.

My repentance to God included ALL my sin.. I didn't take them one at a time as the LDS do.. There is no way I could be ***ured that I wouldn't have missed a few and since NO UNCLEAN THING CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD I would be denied a place with Him in His Kingdom.. Instead I confessed my sin and He (God) is faithful and just to forgive my sin and cleanse me of ALL unrighteousness.. So what did I do about it? Nothing He did it all.. He broke my heart, showing me the poverty of my spirit and my sin. He put the sorrow for that sin within me. He showed me humility before His greatness. He places in me a hunger for Him, a desire to be filled by His Spirit again and again.. A need to help others always pointing to Him as the source for anything that He does through me. Allowing Him access to my heart to recreate me in the image of Jesus have the ***urance of standing in His presences at the end of my days without question in my mind..

Anyone that tells me that They DO any on this is waving a flag of self righteousness in my face and it is disgusting.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

Sir- We get what you are saying here and I for one would be happy to dialogue with you but have in the past and it went nowhere. Just let me make a point- when you attack someone personally about a sin they may (or may not have) committed, all it does is make your self-righteous at***ude even more apparent. Don't cast stones, especially in public, before you straighten up your own house.

I know you will agree with me that who ever says that they have no sin is a liar and the truth in not in them.. This is what I hear from the LDS here and everywhere. That they don't have sin in them. That they are by nature good. That the few times in their life that they do din they go through the steps I listed on another thread.. They can be forgiven of almost any sin but if a Christian sins and they find out about it they make it their life's work to drag it up again and again..

Yes I sinned and committed adultery. I was totally in myself having had walked away from God. Then I came to see that sin and the Holy Spirit convicted me and brought me back to the cross where I saw what my sin had caused in the suffering of my Lord.. I accepted His sacrifice for my sin and thanked Him for His grace..

Since that day I have failed again and again in many ways and in differing ways.. It doesn't matter I still fail but as Paul said it is no longer I, but sin that lives within me.. He continues to work in me conforming me to the image of Jesus but unlike many He has a lit of work to do to get me where He wants me to be.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I know you will agree with me that who ever says that they have no sin is a liar and the truth in not in them.. This is what I hear from the LDS here and everywhere. That they don't have sin in them. That they are by nature good. That the few times in their life that they do din they go through the steps I listed on another thread..

You know, sometimes I wonder about your ability to perceive and understand LDS, even to the point that I wonder if you were really once LDS.

Mosiah 3:19

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

It is in our scripture that the natural man is an enemy to God.

[RealFakeHair]

Mosiah 3:19

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam,(our mormon god and the only one we have to do with) and will be, forever and ever,(or unless the present LDS prophet over rules this.) unless he yields to the enticings of the (LDS- Holy Spirit), and putteth off the natural man (unless it was Joseph Smith jr, or Brigham Young, who could just bout do anything under the sun.)and becometh a saint, through the atonement of Christ the Lord, of all and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him,( especially payment to the LDS inc. in form of a ***he) even as a child doth submit to his father.
(but only a LDS in good standing with a recommend father, all other fathers, forget about it!)It is in our scripture that the natural man is an enemy to God.[/QUOTE]
This is the way it reads in reformed egyptian.

[jdjhere]

JamesBanta stated: "Yes I sinned and committed adultery. I was totally in myself having had walked away from God. Then I came to see that sin and the Holy Spirit convicted me and brought me back to the cross where I saw what my sin had caused in the suffering of my Lord.. I accepted His sacrifice for my sin and thanked Him for His grace.."

Well JamesBanta, Jesus said if you even LOOK at a woman with lust in your heart that you are guilty, so guess what? Every guy here in this WM forum, at one time or another is his life, is GUILTY, including Sir. As males, our flesh is weak and that is part of the battle.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

JamesBanta stated: "Yes I sinned and committed adultery. I was totally in myself having had walked away from God. Then I came to see that sin and the Holy Spirit convicted me and brought me back to the cross where I saw what my sin had caused in the suffering of my Lord.. I accepted His sacrifice for my sin and thanked Him for His grace.."

Well JamesBanta, Jesus said if you even LOOK at a woman with lust in your heart that you are guilty, so guess what? Every guy here in this WM forum, at one time or another is his life, is GUILTY, including Sir. As males, our flesh is weak and that is part of the battle.

So according to JD's interpretation of the Bible, to think of a sin is the same as to act on it. There is no difference in gravity or severity.

I think this and the other line of thinking brought up in this thread about "It's not me that is sinning but the sin that is in me", are reasons that these Christians are so quick to shrug off sins as being no big deal. They simply believe that since they are "saved", nothing they do will affect that salvation, not even sins, so if you mess up and sin, it's no big deal because it isn't YOUR fault you are sinning because YOu are perfect in Jesus. It's simply that pesky sin that is inside you that is doing the bad stuff. "The devil made me do it" at***ude. And also this idea that, well, I've already thought about doing it so it is no different then if I actually DO commit it, so why not?

That is a problematic position for Christians because it actually mocks God and Jesus' atonement.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Sir

So according to JD's interpretation of the Bible, to think of a sin is the same as to act on it. There is no difference in gravity or severity.

I think this and the other line of thinking brought up in this thread about "It's not me that is sinning but the sin that is in me", are reasons that these Christians are so quick to shrug off sins as being no big deal. They simply believe that since they are "saved", nothing they do will affect that salvation, not even sins, so if you mess up and sin, it's no big deal because it isn't YOUR fault you are sinning because YOu are perfect in Jesus. It's simply that pesky sin that is inside you that is doing the bad stuff. "The devil made me do it" at***ude. And also this idea that, well, I've already thought about doing it so it is no different then if I actually DO commit it, so why not?

That is a problematic position for Christians because it actually mocks God and Jesus' atonement.

No son is no big deal.. All it caused was the entry of death into the world, the suffering of the Lord on that cruel Roman cross, and the destruction of countless souls that will be lost in the Lake of Fire.. Because God offers us forgiveness and justification as a free gift through faith in Jesus doesn't make the gift cheep or valueless. It is a gift that is beyond any value and beyond our ability to purchase. Your blasphemy would cheapen it and that is one more of your attacks on the Christian faith that you say you never make.. You insult our God, His might in creation, His work for our salvation. Then you get upset when we tell you that the Bible contradicts your doctrines on each point.. That God is One Lord, That God is Spirit, That He created all things, That He purchased our salvation with His own blood and gives it freely to all that believe.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

JamesBanta stated: "Yes I sinned and committed adultery. I was totally in myself having had walked away from God. Then I came to see that sin and the Holy Spirit convicted me and brought me back to the cross where I saw what my sin had caused in the suffering of my Lord.. I accepted His sacrifice for my sin and thanked Him for His grace.."

Well JamesBanta, Jesus said if you even LOOK at a woman with lust in your heart that you are guilty, so guess what? Every guy here in this WM forum, at one time or another is his life, is GUILTY, including Sir. As males, our flesh is weak and that is part of the battle.

Thank you my brother for your support and understanding.. I am still sinning regularly for as I read God's word I am still guilty before Him for breaking all His Laws (James 2:10).. Still I was very guilty and as I have gained His promised forgiveness I thank you for yours as well.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Thank you my brother for your support and understanding.. I am still sinning regularly for as I read God's word I am still guilty before Him for breaking all His Laws (James 2:10).. Still I was very guilty and as I have gained His promised forgiveness I thank you for yours as well.. IHS jim

I've often wonder why so many people are worried about other peoples sins.
I can barely keep up with my own, like today, I've must have sinned 1.2 million times all ready. I wonder how many goats I gotta take to the LDS temple for sacrifice for my sins, anyone got an idea?
NO, James you are not quilty, as in the words of St Paul, " Liberty".
James, as a born againder you have taken of the Living Cup of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible, and the Cup is never empty!

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

I've often wonder why so many people are worried about other peoples sins.
I can barely keep up with my own, like today, I've must have sinned 1.2 million times all ready. I wonder how many goats I gotta take to the LDS temple for sacrifice for my sins, anyone got an idea?
NO, James you are not quilty, as in the words of St Paul, " Liberty".
James, as a born againder you have taken of the Living Cup of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible, and the Cup is never empty!

It's a good thing I can come to the cup of His Spirit again and again because my spirit leaks.. IHS jim

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

You know, sometimes I wonder about your ability to perceive and understand LDS, even to the point that I wonder if you were really once LDS.

Mosiah 3:19

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

It is in our scripture that the natural man is an enemy to God.

Why do we need to understand LDS? Its already been proven the mormon jesus was a man, married and fathered children. This isn't an attack, it's what the lds church taught.

Of course the natural man is an enmity of God. That's why you must be born again.

[jdjhere]

Sir stated: "jdjhere,

Since you have chosen to go ahead and contribute to this thread, what are your positions to the bolded questions in the OP? What is your position on each of the points of repentance that James conjectured upon? Are the LDS positions acceptable? Why or why not?

1. The sinner must have "Sorrow for Sin"
Of course. You have to recognize it IS sin and be sorry that you have sinned against God.
2. Then "Confess" the sin.
Of course. We need to confess that what we have done and deal with it and repent.
3. You have to stop sinning "Abandon Sin".
Of course. We need to repent of the sin (turn away from) and do our best NOT to sin anymore.
4. The sinner MUST make Res***ution.
Of course. If we have injured anybody (physically OR mentally) we need to try to make the wrong right again, then #5…
5. You must change your ways to "Righteous Living"
Of course but we do NOT always make it but we are to strive to be perfect as Jesus commanded. Unfortunately, our sin nature gets in the way at times and we do not always make it. Anybody that says they have NO sin is a liar, and the Truth is not in him. Sometimes we do actually repent and we change certain actions about ourselves. I believe it’s a lifelong process with the help of the Holy Spirit.

As a side note, there are lots of comments about Christians acting like sin is "no big deal," that we just sin on Sa****ay, ask for forgiveness on Sunday and act like it is no big deal. Just for me personally, you don’t even KNOW ME and have no idea what you are talking about. I realize EVERY SIN I commit is another pound of the nails in Christ's hands and feet. If you think I am not conscience about THAT then there is no sense in even dialoging with you. I know MANY LDS people and BELIEVE ME.... NONE of them are perfect or sinless.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

Sir stated: "jdjhere,

Since you have chosen to go ahead and contribute to this thread, what are your positions to the bolded questions in the OP? What is your position on each of the points of repentance that James conjectured upon? Are the LDS positions acceptable? Why or why not?

1. The sinner must have "Sorrow for Sin"
Of course. You have to recognize it IS sin and be sorry that you have sinned against God.
2. Then "Confess" the sin.
Of course. We need to confess that what we have done and deal with it and repent.
3. You have to stop sinning "Abandon Sin".
Of course. We need to repent of the sin (turn away from) and do our best NOT to sin anymore.
4. The sinner MUST make Res***ution.
Of course. If we have injured anybody (physically OR mentally) we need to try to make the wrong right again, then #5…
5. You must change your ways to "Righteous Living"
Of course but we do NOT always make it but we are to strive to be perfect as Jesus commanded. Unfortunately, our sin nature gets in the way at times and we do not always make it. Anybody that says they have NO sin is a liar, and the Truth is not in him. Sometimes we do actually repent and we change certain actions about ourselves. I believe it’s a lifelong process with the help of the Holy Spirit.

So you agree with the LDS principles of repentance too.

Great!!

I wonder why other "christians" like James seem to have a problem with almost all of them.

As a side note, there are lots of comments about Christians acting like sin is "no big deal," that we just sin on Sa****ay, ask for forgiveness on Sunday and act like it is no big deal. Just for me personally, you don’t even KNOW ME and have no idea what you are talking about. I realize EVERY SIN I commit is another pound of the nails in Christ's hands and feet. If you think I am not conscience about THAT then there is no sense in even dialoging with you.

Well, you don't know me either. So does that mean you have no idea what YOU are talking about?

I know MANY LDS people and BELIEVE ME.... NONE of them are perfect or sinless.

That's funny. Me too!!!!

So what? Whoever said anyone was sinless and perfect?

This is about repentance, not who is better than someone else.

[jdjhere]

Sir stated: "I appreciate your attempt at preaching not to cast stones while simultaneously calling me self-righteous. No irony there. None. "

Glad you feel that way. We are both sinners, you and me. I just thought you were attacking JamesBanta by repeating his name many times in "quotes" and it seemed fairly vindictive to me. If I misunderstood I apologize, Sir. Once we admit to God we have sinned and try to change it with the above steps, that sin is washed as WHITE as snow and is NO MORE. Thats what Jesus Christ has done for us with His blood and willingly going to the cross FOR US. There is no greater love than this.

[jdjhere]

Sir stated: "Well, you don't know me either. So does that mean you have no idea what YOU are talking about?"

No I don't know you but YOU (NOT me) made the statement about Christians, of which I AM one. So, explain to me what you meant when you said Christians act like sin is "no big deal."

Sir stated: (Post #13) "are reasons that these Christians are so quick to shrug off sins as being no big deal. They simply believe that since they are "saved", nothing they do will affect that salvation, not even sins, so if you mess up and sin, it's no big deal because ??it isn't YOUR fault?? you are sinning because You are perfect in Jesus."

This statement is simply NOT TRUE.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

Sir stated: "Well, you don't know me either. So does that mean you have no idea what YOU are talking about?"

No I don't know you but YOU (NOT me) made the statement about Christians, of which I AM one. So, explain to me what you meant when you said Christians act like sin is "no big deal."

Sir stated: (Post #13) "are reasons that these Christians are so quick to shrug off sins as being no big deal. They simply believe that since they are "saved", nothing they do will affect that salvation, not even sins, so if you mess up and sin, it's no big deal because ??it isn't YOUR fault?? you are sinning because You are perfect in Jesus."

This statement is simply NOT TRUE.

Okay....some Christians.

Obviously not 100% of any group will believe the exact same. Even Mormons. So when critics claim that "Mormons believe...", remember your statement that maybe SOME Mormons believe...

And my statement IS true. No matter how much a Christian believes his sin is affecting Christ's suffering, when they simply blame the "sin" for sinning and claim they themselves are actually perfectly blameless because they are "saved, that's where the true understanding of sin and repentance is diminished in their "gospel". That's my take.

jdjhere: As a courtesy, could you use the quote function when quoting posts? It is difficult to read through your personal formatting.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Sir

Okay....some Christians.

Obviously not 100% of any group will believe the exact same. Even Mormons. So when critics claim that "Mormons believe...", remember your statement that maybe SOME Mormons believe...

And my statement IS true. No matter how much a Christian believes his sin is affecting Christ's suffering, when they simply blame the "sin" for sinning and claim they themselves are actually perfectly blameless because they are "saved, that's where the true understanding of sin and repentance is diminished in their "gospel". That's my take.

jdjhere: As a courtesy, could you use the quote function when quoting posts? It is difficult to read through your personal formatting.

I believe 100% of what I believe in, but the other 0% is adding up to more than what I can handel.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

No I don't know you but YOU (NOT me) made the statement about Christians, of which I AM one. So, explain to me what you meant when you said Christians act like sin is "no big deal."

Sir stated: (Post #13) "are reasons that these Christians are so quick to shrug off sins as being no big deal. They simply believe that since they are "saved", nothing they do will affect that salvation, not even sins, so if you mess up and sin, it's no big deal because ??it isn't YOUR fault?? you are sinning because You are perfect in Jesus."

This statement is simply NOT TRUE.

Maybe--but there is one thing for sure--the faith alone do not relate acts of obedience to Jesus Christ with His grace unto eternal life.

They are faith that is alone for salvation.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by jdjhere
No I don't know you but YOU (NOT me) made the statement about Christians, of which I AM one. So, explain to me what you meant when you said Christians act like sin is "no big deal."

Sir stated: (Post #13) "are reasons that these Christians are so quick to shrug off sins as being no big deal. They simply believe that since they are "saved", nothing they do will affect that salvation, not even sins, so if you mess up and sin, it's no big deal because ??it isn't YOUR fault?? you are sinning because You are perfect in Jesus."

This statement is simply NOT TRUE.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Maybe--but there is one thing for sure--the faith alone do not relate acts of obedience to Jesus Christ with His grace unto eternal life.

They are faith that is alone for salvation.

Bump for JD

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Bump for JD

What refutes obedience as the way to salvation is the fact that NO ONE is obedient.. If obedience were the only way to salvation no one could ever be saved.. Because of this God in His wisdom made it possible for a man to be perfect before Him bu imputing the righteousness of His Son in those that believe (Romans 4:24).. IHS jim

[theway]

Originally Posted by James Banta

What refutes obedience as the way to salvation is the fact that NO ONE is obedient.. If obedience were the only way to salvation no one could ever be saved.. Because of this God in His wisdom made it possible for a man to be perfect before Him bu imputing the righteousness of His Son in those that believe (Romans 4:24).. IHS jim

Oh... I see.... So you believe that a person can refuse to obey God, and still be saved??? good to know.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by theway

Oh... I see.... So you believe that a person can refuse to obey God, and still be saved??? good to know.

I believe that in ourselves not one of us is obedient to God.. NOT ONE! Those of us that love Him want more than anything to live for Him but as I have proven through the scripture NOT ONE OF US DOES.. Paul made it clear that as born again children of God we don't sin.. That it is sin that lives in us, in our flesh, that sins.. It is therefore not I that sins but sin that lives in me (Romans7:17)..

I have heard LDS tell me again and again "Oh you can say you believe and then sin all you want". the answer is "no, we actually sin much more than we want. We want to be sinless and live for him in all things. What we end up doing is not what we want". This is funny you accuse those of us that have been LDS of telling you what you believe when having been there we know very well what is taught as the "gospel" but for you to tell us what we believe is ridiculous. We believe we are saved by the GRACE of God through faith in Jesus and NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast. If we sin it is not us but sin that lives in us (Romans 7:17). WE ARE PURE STANDING IN THE IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LORD JESUS (Romans 4:22-24). That is Biblical truth.. IHS jim