Repentance

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Yes--at all. The faith alone disclaim any acts of obedience that is necessary for God's grace unto life. It is faith that is alone for salvation.

Originally Posted by Billyray

After all of these years do you even have a clue why we believe this?

That's just it, Billyray. I know too well what the faith alone believe--and it is exactly what I stated--faith that is alone for salvation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That's just it, Billyray. I know too well what the faith alone believe--and it is exactly what I stated--faith that is alone for salvation.

Romans 4: 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Why don't you go ahead and tell me what this verse means?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Well--if it is not dead faith--then it is faith with works. Faith alone falls. End of story.

It is God's grace given to all people of faith that saves. Faith not just a head knowledge.. Knowing isn't enough one must have real live faith.. That faith that is a gift of God. Not a faith conceived by a person's own will. Not a feeling but a reliance on God to be, and do, exactly what He said He is, and has done.. God has told is through the Person of the Son that He is Spirit. Through the person of the Holy Spirit He has told us that He is one Lord, that no other God existed before God, and no other ever will exist. That He who knows all things doesn't know of the existence of any other God. Jesus made it clear that the work of God is to believe on Him whom He sent.. We therefore must believe on God has He has explained Himself to us.. As Spirit, as invisible without a body of flesh an bone as we have.. Do the LDS hold such a Person as God? NO! Living faith is to trust in the living God and not a myth.. Any God explained in violation of the truth He has given to is is dead faith.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

You know, sometimes I wonder about your ability to perceive and understand LDS, even to the point that I wonder if you were really once LDS.

Mosiah 3:19

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

It is in our scripture that the natural man is an enemy to God.

We are all born natural are we not? Born onto a world of sin. Born enemies of God because we are all natural at birth.. It isn't I that is missing the mark here, it is mormonism. Trying to teach that being natural we are enemies of God, and yet denying that little children are enemies but actually pure.. This is a conflicting teaching one you can't even see.. Seems that I see things in mormonism that you are blind to. One of us sees mormonism for what it is and the other just over looks grave contradictions in it's doctrine.. Just because I don't believe the lies that are mormonism any longer doesn't mean I don't know that the lies exist. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Well--if it is not dead faith--then it is faith with works. Faith alone falls. End of story.

Don't you believe that God sees the heart while men see only what is visible before them (1 Samuel 16:7). Since I am one that believes God's word, I am confident that James was correct when He said show me your faith by doing these things and I will show you my faith as I also do them. Do works prove anything to God? NO! The only one that uses works to know about our faith are men.. Since men can't save us, it is though the faith in our hearts whereby the grace of God that brings salvation is manifest. Only God sees that. That which men see is just a image of that abiding faith that has opened the door of grace that has made us God's children. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I believe what I have told you is that faith precedes obedience to Christ--but faith is still dead faith without obedience to Jesus Christ. Even the devils believe. The faith alone make it out that one is somehow saved at the point of belief, and then obedience to Jesus Christ. The scriptures have it quite differently:


John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.


That has all being judged according to works--AFTER DEATH--and that for life or ****ation.

I have shown that you, me, everyone that has ever lived, as all people living now are disobedient to God.. We have not obeyed the commandments of Jesus.. By your creed here no one can be saved. Disobedience among us is rampant. We have been told that no one is acceptable to God. Jesus even said it "there is none good but God" (Mark 10:18).. You are in sin as much as every man. Every man is guilty before God. That includes you, your Bishop, even the president of your church. Even the Christians here, in themselves, are guilty of all Sin before a Holy God.. Only by faith in Jesus can a person be seen in the righteousness of Jesus and thereby be acceptable to God.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---I believe what I have told you is that faith precedes obedience to Christ--but faith is still dead faith without obedience to Jesus Christ. Even the devils believe. The faith alone make it out that one is somehow saved at the point of belief, and then obedience to Jesus Christ. The scriptures have it quite differently:


John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.


That has all being judged according to works--AFTER DEATH--and that for life or ****ation.

Originally Posted by James Banta

I have shown that you, me, everyone that has ever lived, as all people living now are disobedient to God..

Could you explain to us how your postulation somehow cancels, rubs out, deletes, or annuls what the scriptures bear witness to--that all will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?


1 Peter 4:16-17----King James Version (KJV)


16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Well--if it is not dead faith--then it is faith with works. Faith alone falls. End of story.

Originally Posted by James Banta

Don't you believe that God sees the heart while men see only what is visible before them (1 Samuel 16:7). Since I am one that believes God's word, I am confident that James was correct when He said show me your faith by doing these things and I will show you my faith as I also do them. Do works prove anything to God? NO!

Works must prove something, as we are all going to be judged by our works:


Matthew 16:27----King James Version (KJV)


27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.



As Paul explained:


Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


If works do not mean anything to God--then why are those who do those works Paul lists above--refused the kingdom of God? That's a salvational condition.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Works must prove something,....

I cant see into a person's heart, therefore the things I can see the person do are all i have to go on as to their "faith"

But works dont save us, because if works or a law saved people the cross was a moot point.

But rather Works tell us about the condition of the person's heart, and that is where salvation takes place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M

the justification by works is for men to see...
The justification by faith is what God alone sees....

This is why salvation comes to they who believe....and that by faith we draw close to god.

good works are the natural result of faith....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Works must prove something, as we are all going to be judged by our works:

Matthew 16:27----King James Version (KJV)


27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.



As Paul explained:


Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


If works do not mean anything to God--then why are those who do those works Paul lists above--refused the kingdom of God? That's a salvational condition.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I cant see into a person's heart, therefore the things I can see the person do are all i have to go on as to their "faith"

Not to worry--it isn't you that will pronounce the final judgment according to works--it is God Himself.

But works dont save us,

True--it's God's grace that saves us--and that grace goes to those who obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

because if works or a law saved people the cross was a moot point.

Even this law?


Galatians 6:2---King James Version (KJV)


2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

But rather Works tell us about the condition of the person's heart, and that is where salvation takes place.

And that is the way God sees it--the works a man is judged by reveals his faith in Christ. But how does that annul the fact that works are what one is judged by?

the justification by works is for men to see...

Men do not justify anyone--that is for God to do.

The justification by faith is what God alone sees....

But faith has works as it's integral component--one cannot separate the two--unless you believe that salvation can come through dead faith:


James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

This is why salvation comes to they who believe....and that by faith we draw close to god.

good works are the natural result of faith....

I agree--and an integral component of living faith.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But faith has works as it's integral component--one cannot separate the two--unless you believe that salvation can come through dead faith:

Sure you can because they are distinct from each other. Salvation takes place at the time a person place in Christ just as the thief on the cross did and he was saved. But it is true that those who have faith will naturally produce works--the thief because he was nailed to the cross didn't do any works because he didn't have the opportunity to do any works after having faith but the fact that he was saved despite having any works disproves your false teachings.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Could you explain to us how your postulation somehow cancels, rubs out, deletes, or annuls what the scriptures bear witness to--that all will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?


1 Peter 4:16-17----King James Version (KJV)


16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

How is it that you neglect the commandments of God given to us By God Himself in Matthew 5:48. Tell me you keep that commandment and I will again bring up the feasts that you have ignored all your life. Instead a Christian has been made perfect before a Holy God imputed with the righteousness of Jesus.. See since He is perfect and He has imputed that righteousness on all who believe in Him a Christian is even keeping the Law we see written in Matthew 5:48.. Trying to keep the commandments of God by yourself only make a person self righteous, not righteous before a holy God.. So in Jesus, the Christian does Good and those that are self righteous have done evil. Haven't you heard there is no one Good but God. Therefore only His righteousness is real righteousness, all other righteousness is of man's invention and therefore self righteousness.

What is it to obey the Gospel other that to believe on the Lord Jesus and be saved? The Gospel teaches us that Jesus came into the world through and act of God's (The Holy Spirit) creative power. That He lived a sinless life, Offered Himself a sacrifice for sin, shedding His blood, then on the third day He was raised for our justification.. Only in faith in these work's Jesus preformed do we obey the gospel..

You keep digging your self a deeper and deeper hole thinking that somehow you can make yourself acceptable to God. The cost of salvation is much greater than any man can ever pay.. Only in the sacrifice of God in the person of Jesus is there any hope for you, for me, for man kind at all to meet the demands of God for our salvation. That is clearly visible in each p***age you quote that calls for our obedience. Compared to the righteousness of Gid we have NO RIGHTEOUSNESS at all. As the great prophet said "Woe is me for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell is the city of the men of unclean lips." (Isaiah 6:5). He was a liar, we are all liars and unclean before God.. He has told us that NO UNCLEAN THING CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.. Without His redemptive work on our behalf all we deserve is death, and that is a work we can't do for ourselves.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----But faith has works as it's integral component--one cannot separate the two--unless you believe that salvation can come through dead faith:


James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sure you can because they are distinct from each other.

But that is only true in the man-made theology of faith that is alone for salvation. Again, the Biblical Christianity bears witness to this fact:

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Could you explain to us how your postulation somehow cancels, rubs out, deletes, or annuls what the scriptures bear witness to--that all will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?


1 Peter 4:16-17----King James Version (KJV)


16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Originally Posted by James Banta

How is it that you neglect the commandments of God given to us By God Himself in Matthew 5:48. Tell me you keep that commandment and I will again bring up the feasts that you have ignored all your life.

Could you explain for us how my obedience somehow cancels out what the scriptures teach as truth? James--the scriptures teach that obedience to Jesus Christ is necessary in receiving God's grace unto life--regardless of what my obedience is or is not.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But that is only true in the man-made theology of faith that is alone for salvation. Again, the Biblical Christianity bears witness to this fact:

That is what the Bible teaches DB. The thief was converted on the cross and was saved, he had faith but no works and he was saved. The Bble in multiples places teaches that salvation takes place when we come to Christ by faith and that our works do not contribute for salvation. You simply refuse to accept what the Bble teaches.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

obedience to Jesus Christ is necessary in receiving God's grace unto life--....

where sin abounds what does the Bible say even more abounds?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---But that is only true in the man-made theology of faith that is alone for salvation. Again, the Biblical Christianity bears witness to this fact:

James2:20--KJV

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Originally Posted by Billyray

That is what the Bible teaches DB. The thief was converted on the cross and was saved, he had faith but no works and he was saved.

How does your belief about the thief somehow cancel out what the scriptures state--faith without works is dead? Do you believe we can be saved through dead faith?

The Bble in multiples places teaches that salvation takes place when we come to Christ by faith and that our works do not contribute for salvation. You simply refuse to accept what the Bble teaches.

How does your theology comport with what the scriptures teach?

Hebrews 5:9 (King James Version)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

where sin abounds what does the Bible say even more abounds?

Grace. And that grace goes to those who obey God:

Hebrews 5:9 (King James Version)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

How does your belief about the thief somehow cancel out what the scriptures state--faith without works is dead? Do you believe we can be saved through dead faith?

What I said does not cancel out anything so I wonder why you persist using this false ***ertion. Salvation comes to those who place their faith in Christ, which is exactly what the thief on the cross did andhe was saved despite not having any works. As I have told you multiple times now dead faith = no faith.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What I said does not cancel out anything so I wonder why you persist using this false ***ertion. Salvation comes to those who place their faith in Christ, which is exactly what the thief on the cross did andhe was saved despite not having any works. As I have told you multiple times now dead faith = no faith.

That places you in a tight position. If the thief had no works--as you admit above--and dead faith = no faith--then you have the thief being saved with dead faith--which you claim is no faith at all.

The scriptures once again bind your theology:

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That places you in a tight position. If the thief had no works--as you admit above--and dead faith = no faith--then you have the thief being saved with dead faith--which you claim is no faith at all.

It doesn't put me in a tight position at all because the thief had faith and those who place their faith in Christ will be saved and salvation is not based on works. This section of scripture only proves that you works based salvation is false.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---What I said does not cancel out anything so I wonder why you persist using this false ***ertion. Salvation comes to those who place their faith in Christ, which is exactly what the thief on the cross did andhe was saved despite not having any works. As I have told you multiple times now dead faith = no faith.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---That places you in a tight position. If the thief had no works--as you admit above--and dead faith = no faith--then you have the thief being saved with dead faith--which you claim is no faith at all.

Originally Posted by Billyray

It doesn't put me in a tight position at all because the thief had faith

How could the thief have had faith when you just stated that--dead faith = no faith.---and then you confirming the thief---was saved despite not having any works..

That is not a tight spot--it is altogether crossways and transverse to logic.


James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Billyray--you are toast to your own arguments.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

How could the thief have had faith when you just stated that--dead faith = no faith.---and then you confirming the thief---was saved despite not having any works..

We know that he had faith because we know that he went to paradise to be with Christ which proves that your teachings are false that works contribute for salvation. Bottom line we are saved when we place our faith in Christ to save us, our works do not contribute for salvation. Dead faith = no faith.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray--you are toast to your own arguments.

DB the one who is toast is you--but unfortunately you will not find that out until after you die.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---What I said does not cancel out anything so I wonder why you persist using this false ***ertion. Salvation comes to those who place their faith in Christ, which is exactly what the thief on the cross did and he was saved despite not having any works. As I have told you multiple times now dead faith = no faith.

[/quote]Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---That places you in a tight position. If the thief had no works--as you admit above--and dead faith = no faith--then you have the thief being saved with dead faith--which you claim is no faith at all.[/quote]

Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---It doesn't put me in a tight position at all because the thief had faith...

[quote] dberrie---How could the thief have had faith when you just stated that--dead faith = no faith.---and then you confirming the thief---was saved despite not having any works..

That is not a tight spot--it is altogether crossways and transverse to logic.

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
[/B]
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Billyray--you are toast to your own arguments.

Originally Posted by Billyray

DB the one who is toast is you--but unfortunately you will not find that out until after you die.

How does your judgment change what the Biblical record testifies to?

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


How could the thief had had faith when you state---"saved despite not having any works. As I have told you multiple times now dead faith = no faith."