Repentance

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

How could the thief had had faith when you state---"saved despite not having any works. As I have told you multiple times now dead faith = no faith."

Simple. He trusted in Christ to save him.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Could you explain for us how my obedience somehow cancels out what the scriptures teach as truth? James--the scriptures teach that obedience to Jesus Christ is necessary in receiving God's grace unto life--regardless of what my obedience is or is not.

You like ever human, other than Jesus, that ever walked the earth is a sinner and therefore NOT obedient.. According to the Apostle James if you have sinned, which you have (Romans 3:23), you are guilty of the whole Law (James 2:10).. You therefore have no more obedience than I do, which is NONE.. The only obedience I claim is that which is imputed on me as a believer through faith in Jesus.. Other than that full obedience what more can you add by the Pharisaical requirements of keeping Laws and traditions made by me. Yes the LDS have laws beyond the requirements given to us by God in His word the Bible. mormonism requires marriage, the Bible does not. Mormonism commands that not alcohol, or tobacco be used, that hot drinks not be taken. What does the Lord teach? That it isn't what goes into the body that defiles us but that which comes out.. Mormonism has added the commandments of men and ascribed them to God. Like the priests of the Inquisition, mormonism teaches their man made LAWS saying "GOD WILLS IT".. Keeping these "Laws" is not obedience but instead is religiosity.

The Bible teaches so clearly that anyone can see and understand that it is "By GRACE we are save though FAITH and that not of ourselves, it is a GIFT from God, NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast". SEE it's not what you do, not what you obey. It is by His grace (Unmerited favor) through trusting Him.. Again obedience (RIGHTEOUSNESS) is imputed to us (Given by an act of God's power). It is not something we can bring into our own minds, hearts, and hands.

It is mormonism that denies the power of God in His power to make us righteous before Him no matter the level of our obedience.. Your statement make no sense. That we are saves by grace through obedience regardless of our obedience.. Come on man, pull it together.. Are you saying we are all saved by grace regardless of our obedience or are you saying that obedience is required to gain an inheritance into the very best place God ever created, His own throne that is above all things.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Grace. And that grace goes to those who obey God:

Hebrews 5:9 (King James Version)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

If this means our personal obedience then we have all failed.. But if it is as the Gospel teaches that all who believe should not perish but have everlasting life, then we gain full obedience through the imputed righteousness of Jesus. Then you can say we are saved in the obedience of the righteous Lord.. I sure don't want anything to do with the self righteousness you seem to be calling for.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Works must prove something, as we are all going to be judged by our works:


Matthew 16:27----King James Version (KJV)


27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.



As Paul explained:


Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


If works do not mean anything to God--then why are those who do those works Paul lists above--refused the kingdom of God? That's a salvational condition.

You can't see what is written right before your eyes can you.. The works of the flesh are listed right there.. The flesh does it's own works, the spirit something totally different.. The works of the Spirit all come through Faith. NOT by what we do but by what Jesus did for us.. The only condition on salvation is to trust in what He is, and what He has done.

I will agree that God will reward good Works but those without such are still saved as a man escaping fire (1 Cor 3:14-15), that a believer has which is not of God is lost though he himself is saved.. Why do you ignore this? I accept the judgement of God of sin. I just separate that sin in the flesh of a believer from His saved heart as this p***age and others where Paul tells us of His sin being separate from him (Romans 7:17)..

You are struggling using the Bible to support your doctrine works salvation because the Bible just doesn't teach it.. You are at war with God in that are rejecting the truth of being imputed with His righteousness and that our salvation comes by His grace through faith and NOT OF WORKS.. No baptism, no laying on of hands, no temple works, no marriage, no enduring to the end in your own righteousness can accomplish, through the works, what He has completed for us.. ALL HE REQUIRES TO RECEIVE THEM IS TO TRUST HIM AND BY SAYING YOU MUST DO THIS, OT THAT YOU DEMONSTRATE THAT YOU DO NOT TRUST HIM TO MEET THE REQUIREMENTS OF GOD'S LAW ON YOUR BEHALF.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Works must prove something, as we are all going to be judged by our works:


Matthew 16:27----King James Version (KJV)


27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.



As Paul explained:


Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


If works do not mean anything to God--then why are those who do those works Paul lists above--refused the kingdom of God? That's a salvational condition.

Originally Posted by James Banta

You can't see what is written right before your eyes can you.. The works of the flesh are listed right there.. The flesh does it's own works, the spirit something totally different.. The works of the Spirit all come through Faith. NOT by what we do but by what Jesus did for us..

Just a note here, James. As to mortality--Paul was referring to the spirit not inheriting the kingdom of God--not the mortal flesh.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Just a note here, James. As to mortality--Paul was referring to the spirit not inheriting the kingdom of God--not the mortal flesh.

So explain how some spirits are guilty of sin before God and others are clean when the BIBLE in both the OT and the NT teach us that we are all sinners before a Holy God? That doing good as is seen in the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:11 qualifies us as doing inequity. And that believing in Him qualifies us for everlasting life (John 3:16). Since we all commit all the sins listed in Galatians 5:19-21 and that according to James 2:10, you are saying that no one can be saved.. I say you are teaching the state of all sinners without showing the great Joy and Peace that come though the forgiveness of God made possible by the sacrifice of Jesus. And that because of His grace through faith in HIM.. I seem to be believing is all of the Bible when you refuse to accept the fullness of God's message right there in front of you.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Works must prove something, as we are all going to be judged by our works:


Matthew 16:27----King James Version (KJV)


27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.



As Paul explained:


Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


If works do not mean anything to God--then why are those who do those works Paul lists above--refused the kingdom of God? That's a salvational condition.

Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post----You can't see what is written right before your eyes can you.. The works of the flesh are listed right there.. The flesh does it's own works, the spirit something totally different.. The works of the Spirit all come through Faith.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Just a note here, James. As to mortality--Paul was referring to the spirit not inheriting the kingdom of God--not the mortal flesh.

Originally Posted by James Banta

So explain how some spirits are guilty of sin before God and others are clean

Because some repent and are baptized--and follow Christ--and some remain in the works Paul listed above--refusing to repent and come unto Christ.

Could you explain your theology that those works, as Paul listed them, will not keep the audience Paul was addressing out of the kingdom of God? That is your belief--right? That Christians can commit those sins Paul lists above the rest of their lives--yet--they are still saved?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Because some repent and are baptized--and follow Christ--and some remain in the works Paul listed above--refusing to repent and come unto Christ.

Could you explain your theology that those works, as Paul listed them, will not keep the audience Paul was addressing out of the kingdom of God? That is your belief--right? That Christians can commit those sins Paul lists above the rest of their lives--yet--they are still saved?

One area that Christians differ from Mormons is that Christians realize that they are sinners and need a Savior to save them from the sins. Mormons such as yourself believe that--in addition to your faith--you do good works and that by doing good works this leads to personal worthiness and eventually exaltation. Christians see God as saving sinners, you see God rewarding salvation to those who earn it. We are just on polar opposites on this issue.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

One area that Christians differ from Mormons is that Christians realize that they are sinners and need a Savior to save them from the sins.

And how does that negate what Paul affirms?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



Again--how can one claim to be saved--live a life full of the above mentioned sins--and still enter into life? As Paul stated:

......Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


So--are you agreeing with James--and believe that a Christian can commit those sins until the day they die--without repentance--and they are still saved?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

And how does that negate what Paul affirms?

Paul would be the first one to admit that we are saved when we come to Christ by faith and that our works do not contribute for salvation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

So--are you agreeing with James--and believe that a Christian can commit those sins until the day they die--without repentance--and they are still saved?

You are a sinner and yet you expect to be exalted, why the double standard?

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----And how does that negate what Paul affirms?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



Again--how can one claim to be saved--live a life full of the above mentioned sins--and still enter into life? As Paul stated:

......Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


So--are you agreeing with James--and believe that a Christian can commit those sins until the day they die--without repentance--and they are still saved?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Paul would be the first one to admit that we are saved when we come to Christ by faith and that our works do not contribute for salvation.

So--you are agreeing with James Banta--one could commit adultery, fornication, murders, etc--until the day they die--and as long as they are saved--they still inherit eternal life?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

So--you are agreeing with James Banta--one could commit adultery, fornication, murders, etc--until the day they die--and as long as they are saved--they still inherit eternal life?

Every single person sins both saved and unsaved. The basis for salvation is faith in Christ. Those who are truly saved are given God's spirit which lives inside them and their lives become more and more Christlike over time. This is evidence that they are saved, not what you believe that they work to be saved.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---So--you are agreeing with James Banta--one could commit adultery, fornication, murders, etc--until the day they die--and as long as they are saved--they still inherit eternal life?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Every single person sins both saved and unsaved. The basis for salvation is faith in Christ. Those who are truly saved are given God's spirit which lives inside them and their lives become more and more Christlike over time. This is evidence that they are saved, not what you believe that they work to be saved.

So--you supplant Paul's theology with your own?


Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

So--you supplant Paul's theology with your own?

What I have said Is Paul's theology and it is the theology of the NT. "Those who are truly saved are given God's spirit which lives inside them and their lives become more and more Christlike over time. This is evidence that they are saved, not what you believe that they work to be saved."

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----So--you supplant Paul's theology with your own?


Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Originally Posted by Billyray

What I have said Is Paul's theology and it is the theology of the NT. "Those who are truly saved are given God's spirit which lives inside them and their lives become more and more Christlike over time. This is evidence that they are saved, not what you believe that they work to be saved."

Billyray--do you agree with James Banta--that one could do all the above things Paul lists--- to the day they die--without any further repentance--and still be saved?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray--do you agree with James Banta--that one could do all the above things Paul lists--- to the day they die--without any further repentance--and still be saved?

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post-----Billyray--do you agree with James Banta--that one could do all the above things Paul lists--- to the day they die--without any further repentance--and still be saved?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

How are you relating those scriptures to the question I asked? Do you agree with James Banta--that Christians could commit any of those above sins Paul lists above until the day they die--without repentance---and are still saved?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

How are you relating those scriptures to the question I asked? Do you agree with James Banta--that Christians could commit any of those above sins Paul lists above until the day they die--without repentance---and are still saved?

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 3
1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?
4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

[dberrie2000]

[quote]Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Galatians 3
1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?
4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

"Works of the law" is a reference to the Mosaic Law. How are you referencing that to Paul's testimony that those who do such things as Paul listed above ----do not inherit the kingdom of God?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

"Works of the law" is a reference to the Mosaic Law.

Romans 2:13*(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the [Mosaic] law shall be justified.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

And how does that negate what Paul affirms?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



Again--how can one claim to be saved--live a life full of the above mentioned sins--and still enter into life? As Paul stated:

......Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


So--are you agreeing with James--and believe that a Christian can commit those sins until the day they die--without repentance--and they are still saved?

We are all guilty of all those terrible sins.. But you don't like anything in James chapter 2 other than Faith without works, do you.. But real Bible believers know that if we offend God in one point we are guilty of all.. So the only way to not be included as one that does the terrible sins listed in Galatians 5 is to keep all the Law like the commandment given in Matthew 5:48. Since not one of us have kept that commandment we are guilty of sin before a Holy God. Being guilty we deserve His wrath. But if we have been imputed with the righteousness of Jesus we are clean before Him and have eternal life.. All your demands for righteousness, and obedience are met in the righteous life of the Lord Jesus.. You want to work and establish your own righteousness you are in serious trouble.. You have already failed.. Every time you tell me that you must obey I will bring up Matthew 5:48 that proves you are NOT obedient, that you ARE in sin.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

How are you relating those scriptures to the question I asked? Do you agree with James Banta--that Christians could commit any of those above sins Paul lists above until the day they die--without repentance---and are still saved?

Wait a minuet there the p***age says nothing about being able to be forgiven of those sins.. It says those that commit them will not inherit the Kingdom of God.. You are adding to the scripture.. If you get to isolate this p***age from all the comments Paul has made that salvation comes to us by the grace of God through faith and NOT BY WORKS then you have to deal with the issue that all that commit these sins are forever lost and the grace of God is not available to them.. We all know that the fullness of God's whole will for us is spelled out in Galatians 5:19-21.. You are teaching total nonsense ripping a p***age out of context without any understanding. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
And how does that negate what Paul affirms?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



Again--how can one claim to be saved--live a life full of the above mentioned sins--and still enter into life? As Paul stated:

......Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


So--are you agreeing with James--and believe that a Christian can commit those sins until the day they die--without repentance--and they are still saved?

Originally Posted by James Banta

Wait a minuet there the p***age says nothing about being able to be forgiven of those sins.. It says those that commit them will not inherit the Kingdom of God..

But my statement was---"and believe that a Christian can commit those sins until the day they die--without repentance--and they are still saved?"

James--there is nothing in the Biblical record that states man can sin the above sins and be forgiven without repentance. Your belief is that Christians can commit those sins without repentance until the day they die--and still be saved--right?

You are adding to the scripture.. If you get to isolate this p***age from all the comments Paul has made that salvation comes to us by the grace of God through faith and NOT BY WORKS then you have to deal with the issue that all that commit these sins are forever lost and the grace of God is not available to them..

Those who commit those sins and never repent are lost--God's grace will not be with them. There is nothing in the scriptures that states Christians can sin whatever sins they will, including those Paul lists above--and never repent--and still be saved. That is your theology--not the Biblical theology.