Repentance

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But my statement was---"and believe that a Christian can commit those sins until the day they die--without repentance--and they are still saved?"

1 John 3
9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

1 John 3
9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Well--where does that leave the theology that a Christian can continue to commit those sins Paul list in Galatians5--without repentance--and still be saved?


Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But my statement was---"and believe that a Christian can commit those sins until the day they die--without repentance--and they are still saved?"

James--there is nothing in the Biblical record that states man can sin the above sins and be forgiven without repentance. Your belief is that Christians can commit those sins without repentance until the day they die--and still be saved--right?



Those who commit those sins and never repent are lost--God's grace will not be with them. There is nothing in the scriptures that states Christians can sin whatever sins they will, including those Paul lists above--and never repent--and still be saved. That is your theology--not the Biblical theology.

YOU STILL HAVEN'T SHOWN ME WHERE REPENTANCE IS MENTIONED IN THE P***AGE.. It is FACT that you added it without authority.. As far as repentance goes there is no such thing as an unrepentant Christian.. We have all repented (Turned away from the world and to the Lord Jesus. The fact that we still walk in these bodies of death (Romans 7:24) and that sin lives in that body (Romans 7:17) so sin is still committed but not by the Christian but only the flesh.. The Christian has received the righteousness of Jesus by imputation (Romans 4:22-24) not by living the Law..

You seem to not understand the doctrine clearly explained in the Bible you are much to busy believing the lies of Joseph Smith.. You still disbelieve the word in teaches us that the Father has given to Jesus all those that He has chosen to be saved.

John 6:37-40
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

That is a p***age clearly stating irresistible grace but you have told me that you deny this doctrine.. You add your own words to the scripture in inserting repentance into the Galatians 5 p***age. You deny that the child of God is imputed with the righteousness of Jesus demanding that we must keep all the commandments of God to receive salvation.. In these beliefs you fail to believe God and in that faithlessness you fall short of His glory and are unworthy as you are now to enter His Kingdom being unwilling to abandon your self righteousness and cling instead to the righteousness of the Lord Jesus.. it is you that hold an unbiblical theology.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Well--where does that leave the theology that a Christian can continue to commit those sins Paul list in Galatians5--without repentance--and still be saved?

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Well--where does that leave the theology that a Christian can continue to commit those sins Paul list in Galatians5--without repentance--and still be saved?

1 John 3
Message--(Paraphrase-not a translation of the Bible)
9-10*People conceived and brought into life by God don’t make a practice of sin. How could they? God’s seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It’s not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin. Here’s how you tell the difference between God’s children and the Devil’s children: The one who won’t practice righteous ways isn’t from God, nor is the one who won’t love brother or sister. A simple test.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by theway

Oh... I see.... So you believe that a person can refuse to obey God, and still be saved??? good to know.

I believe that in ourselves not one of us is obedient to God.. NOT ONE! Those of us that love Him want more than anything to live for Him but as I have proven through the scripture NOT ONE OF US DOES.. Paul made it clear that as born again children of God we don't sin.. That it is sin that lives in us, in our flesh, that sins.. It is therefore not I that sins but sin that lives in me (Romans7:17)..

I have heard LDS tell me again and again "Oh you can say you believe and then sin all you want". the answer is "no, we actually sin much more than we want. We want to be sinless and live for him in all things. What we end up doing is not what we want". This is funny you accuse those of us that have been LDS of telling you what you believe when having been there we know very well what is taught as the "gospel" but for you to tell us what we believe is ridiculous. We believe we are saved by the GRACE of God through faith in Jesus and NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast. If we sin it is not us but sin that lives in us (Romans 7:17). WE ARE PURE STANDING IN THE IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LORD JESUS (Romans 4:22-24). That is Biblical truth.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

Oh... I see.... So you believe that a person can refuse to obey God, and still be saved??? good to know.

Straw man argument. Is this the best you can do trying to criticize Biblical Christianity?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by theway View Post---Oh... I see.... So you believe that a person can refuse to obey God, and still be saved??? good to know.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Straw man argument. Is this the best you can do trying to criticize Biblical Christianity?

Where do we find those who refuse to obey God inheriting eternal life in the Biblical text?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Where do we find those who refuse to obey God inheriting eternal life in the Biblical text?

1 John 3
Message--(Paraphrase-not a translation of the Bible)
9-10*People conceived and brought into life by God don’t make a practice of sin. How could they? God’s seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It’s not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin. Here’s how you tell the difference between God’s children and the Devil’s children: The one who won’t practice righteous ways isn’t from God, nor is the one who won’t love brother or sister. A simple test.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Where do we find those who refuse to obey God inheriting eternal life in the Biblical text?

Originally Posted by Billyray

1 John 3
Message--(Paraphrase-not a translation of the Bible)
9-10*People conceived and brought into life by God don’t make a practice of sin. How could they? God’s seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It’s not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin. Here’s how you tell the difference between God’s children and the Devil’s children: The one who won’t practice righteous ways isn’t from God, nor is the one who won’t love brother or sister. A simple test.

And how does your paraphrase confirm that God extends His grace unto life to those who refuse to obey Him?


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



Where do you find in the scriptures that God extends His grace unto life to the disobedient?


2 Thessalonians 1:8-9---King James Version (KJV)


8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;



1 Peter 4:17-18---King James Version (KJV)


17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

And how does your paraphrase confirm that God extends His grace unto life to those who refuse to obey Him?

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

1John 3:7. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----And how does your paraphrase confirm that God extends His grace unto life to those who refuse to obey Him?


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



Where do you find in the scriptures that God extends His grace unto life to the disobedient?


2 Thessalonians 1:8-9---King James Version (KJV)


8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;



1 Peter 4:17-18---King James Version (KJV)


17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Paul did not believe that grace was attainable under the Mosaic Law(works). But Paul did differentiate between works(Mosaic Law) and obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ:


Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)


5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Could you explain for us how Paul connected obedience to eternal life--and then taught that obedience had nothing to do with salvation?

Your theology will not fit the scriptures. Either obedience to Christ is connected to Christ-- patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
--or it is not.

When Paul refers to "works"--that is a reference to the Mosaic Law, for the main. He distinguishes the Mosaic Law from the gospel using that term. You are using "works" to denote acts of obedience to Jesus Christ. Two separate usages.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

When Paul refers to "works"--that is a reference to the Mosaic Law, for the main. He distinguishes the Mosaic Law from the gospel using that term. You are using "works" to denote acts of obedience to Jesus Christ. Two separate usages.

Romans 2
14*For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15*Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


Matthew 22

36*Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37*Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38*This is the first and great commandment.
39*And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40*On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Straw man argument. Is this the best you can do trying to criticize Biblical Christianity?

Hey... I can only work with what you give me.
So when some wannabe Calvinist type tells me obedience to God is not required for salvation, then I going to take him at his word that that's what he believes.

[theway]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I believe that in ourselves not one of us is obedient to God.. NOT ONE!

Speak for yourself James. Do you really believe that you can plase God by telling Him that even after He saved you that you are giving up trying to obey Him and you plan on remaining a hopeless reprobate sinner the rest of your life. That is your freedom to do and think so... Just don't expect to recieve any blessings or salvation based on that at***ude.

Originally Posted by James Banta

Those of us that love Him want more than anything to live for Him but as I have proven through the scripture NOT ONE OF US DOES..

No James... The scriptures are clear on this, those of us who Love Him, obey Him; those who do not love God do not obey Him and are counted with the sinners.

Originally Posted by James Banta

I have heard LDS tell me again and again "Oh you can say you believe and then sin all you want". the answer is "no, we actually sin much more than we want. We want to be sinless and live for him in all things. What we end up doing is not what we want".

HUH?????..... What craziness.....
There was a man who went to his Doctor. The Doctor asked what was wrong with him, and the man told him that nothing was wrong except for the fact that it hurt when he put his hand above his head.
"Then don't put your hand above your head!" consulted the Doctor.
The joke my trivialize things, but it really is that simple.
If you don't want to sin James, then don't sin. Choose today who you plan on serving.

Originally Posted by James Banta

This is funny you accuse those of us that have been LDS of telling you what you believe when having been there we know very well what is taught as the "gospel" but for you to tell us what we believe is ridiculous. We believe we are saved by the GRACE of God through faith in Jesus and NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast. If we sin it is not us but sin that lives in us (Romans 7:17). WE ARE PURE STANDING IN THE IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LORD JESUS (Romans 4:22-24). That is Biblical truth.. IHS jim

And thus Satan lulls people to sleep saying... Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow you are saved.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

Hey... I can only work with what you give me.

Originally Posted by theway

. . .So you believe that a person can refuse to obey God, and still be saved???

What Christian on either this board or CARM teaches that we should refuse to obey God?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

So when some wannabe Calvinist type tells me obedience to God is not required for salvation, then I going to take him at his word that that's what he believes.

Originally Posted by theway

. . .So you believe that a person can refuse to obey God, and still be saved???

After all of this time you still don't understand what the Bible teaches? Or are you simply purposefully misrepresenting what we believe (straw man) which of course would be dishonest.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What Christian on either this board or CARM teaches that we should refuse to obey God?

I really love it Billyray how you develop your merry-go-round rides.

You always take two completely unrelated statements and try to argue them at the same time. However when someone calls on one of your statements, you quickly jump over to the other one and pretend that that is really what the argument was all about all along. It quit comical to watch your little dance.

Notice how you went from saying that works or obedience is not a requirement of salvation;

to

Saying that No one "..teaches that we should refuse to obey God."

Two completely different arguments with two completely different answers... and completely unrelated.
So here's how it will go... I will say that I didn't say that anybody said that they should refuse to obey God; then you will jump back to the first statement and pretend they say the same thing.... and around and around she goes.......

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

I really love it Billyray how you develop your merry-go-round rides.

And I really love it how you set up a straw man argument. You know what we believe and you purposely misrepresent it which is dishonest.

Originally Posted by theway

You always take two completely unrelated statements and try to argue them at the same time.

Those so called "unrelated statements" were made by you in case you forgot.

Originally Posted by theway

However when someone calls on one of your statements, you quickly jump over to the other one and pretend that that is really what the argument was all about all along. It quit comical to watch your little dance.

You are the one who made the false accusation. Remember?

Originally Posted by theway

Two completely different arguments with two completely different answers... and completely unrelated.

I called you out on your first statement so then you thought that you would rephrase it to get out of the little pickle you were in.

BTW I notice that you didn't try to defend you false accusation. Why is that?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

So when some wannabe Calvinist type tells me obedience to God is not required for salvation, then I going to take him at his word that that's what he believes.

It is not only Calvinist's who believe that salvation is based on faith and not works but Arminians as well. But you should already know this. And you are also forgetting that this is what the Bible teaches as well NOT the works based salvation that you believe in. Also don't forget that Christians believe that we should keep all of the commandments and do good works but you seemed to forget this little detail.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

Oh... I see.... So you believe that a person can refuse to obey God, and still be saved??? good to know.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Straw man argument. Is this the best you can do trying to criticize Biblical Christianity?

Originally Posted by theway

Hey... I can only work with what you give me.
So when some wannabe Calvinist type tells me obedience to God is not required for salvation, then I going to take him at his word that that's what he believes.

Here is the running dialogue in case you forgot, and others can also see how you tried to weasel out of your first statement which is obviously false.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Here is the running dialogue in case you forgot, and others can also see how you tried to weasel out of your first statement which is obviously false.

That's a lousy example of a "running dialog" but a perfect example of how Critics only see what they want to see. You left out everything that would have remotely made the dialog to make any sense.
Here is a better "running dialog".

Originally Posted by James Banta
What refutes obedience as the way to salvation is the fact that NO ONE is obedient.

Originally Posted by theway
Oh... I see.... So you believe that a person can refuse to obey God, and still be saved??? good to know.

Now if you notice, my reply was directly related to James' statement. I did not make a random statement out of thin air, nor did I create a argument and then argue against it,(which is what a strawmen argument really means).

Now here was your reply...

Originally Posted by Billyray
Straw man argument. Is this the best you can do trying to criticize Biblical Christianity?

Notice here that you were not even part of the dialog, the only reply I was interested in was James'.... never yours.
Notice also that you never said my statement was wrong, just that you thought it didn't go far enough in pointing out the errors of Modern Christianity.

Originally Posted by theway
Hey... I can only work with what you give me.
So when some wannabe Calvinist type tells me obedience to God is not required for salvation, then I going to take him at his word that that's what he believes.

Now notice how I acknowledge the fact that I would love to point out all the heresies of Modern Christianity, but that I will simply limit it to the one heresy which was stated.

That is why your reply here makes absolutely no sense???

Originally Posted by Billyray
What Christian on either this board or CARM teaches that we should refuse to obey God?

If you really want to know what a strawmen argument is then you need look no further than the statement above. You will see that no one made the above statement other than you and then you proceed to try and knock it down. This is the cl***ic example of a strawmen argument, only it was made by YOU.
Now you can get the dialog back on course by proving your case, or by agreeing with mine, simply by answering the question before you.

Can a man refuse to obey God and still be saved?
(notice I asked "can" not "should")

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

That's a lousy example of a "running dialog" but a perfect example of how Critics only see what they want to see. You left out everything that would have remotely made the dialog to make any sense.

It makes perfect sense, you said something false and I called you on it, then you tried to weasel out of your prior statement by changing it. Here it is again and anyone can look back and see for themself.

Originally Posted by theway

Oh... I see.... So you believe that a person can refuse to obey God, and still be saved??? good to know.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Straw man argument. Is this the best you can do trying to criticize Biblical Christianity?

Originally Posted by theway

Hey... I can only work with what you give me.
So when some wannabe Calvinist type tells me obedience to God is not required for salvation, then I going to take him at his word that that's what he believes.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Billyray

It makes perfect sense, you said something false and I called you on it, then you tried to weasel out of your prior statement by changing it. Here it is again and anyone can look back and see for themself.

What exactly did I say that was false????

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

Notice here that you were not even part of the dialog, the only reply I was interested in was James'.... never yours.

You do realize that this is a discussion board don't you?

A public discussion forum is not the place for a private one on one discussion with a single individual.