Repentance

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

What exactly did I say that was false????

I have already pointed that out to you. But here it is again.

Originally Posted by theway

Oh... I see.... So you believe that a person can refuse to obey God, and still be saved??? good to know.

Christians don't believe we can refuse to obey God. Why do you purposely lie about what we believe?

[theway]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You do realize that this is a discussion board don't you?
A public discussion forum is not the place for a private one on one discussion with a single individual.

Once again... What did I say that was false to James.

LOL... With the number of posters here having dwindled down to just a few, it has in fact come down to just a one on one discussion. Only in your case you seem to be just arguing with yourself.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I have already pointed that out to you. But here it is again.

Christians don't believe we can refuse to obey God. Why do you purposely lie about what we believe?

There you go again making a brand new statement and then try to argue with the statement you created, instead of the question I asked you, in an attempt to avoid my question.

Here it is again with the part you left off bolded for you.

Can a man refuse to obey God and still be saved?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

Notice also that you never said my statement was wrong. . .

Sure I did. Here it is again.

Originally Posted by Billyray

What Christian on either this board or CARM teaches that we should refuse to obey God?

Christians don't believe that they can "refuse to obey God". That is why I asked you what I did above to give you the opportunity to provide a single example from any Christian poster on either this board or on CARM. Your lack of a single poster shouts that what you have said is false. Look at post #130. Christians believe that those who are born again have God's spirit within them and that they are changed and because they are changed they follow God which is evidence that they are truly saved.

Originally Posted by Billyray

1 John 3
Message--(Paraphrase-not a translation of the Bible)
9-10*People conceived and brought into life by God don’t make a practice of sin. How could they? God’s seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It’s not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin. Here’s how you tell the difference between God’s children and the Devil’s children: The one who won’t practice righteous ways isn’t from God, nor is the one who won’t love brother or sister. A simple test.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

Can a man refuse to obey God and still be saved?

A person who IS saved can't go on sinning because he is born again/saved.

1 John 3:9*No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God

[theway]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sure I did. Here it is again.

LOL.... there you go, you tried to weasel out exactly as I said you would. When I asked this simple question in an attempt to get you to support or clarify your's and James' position.

Can a man refuse to obey God and still be saved?

You all of the sudden pretend that the following statement by you is what we were really talking about.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Christians don't believe that they can "refuse to obey God".

Then when I said that nobody ever asked the question you answered, you jump right back to you first statement and once again refuse to back it up by answering my question.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Billyray

A person who IS saved can't go on sinning because he is born again/saved.

But that makes no sense when compared with your earlier statement that ALL have sinned and continue to sin even after being saved???

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

LOL.... there you go, you tried to weasel out exactly as I said you would. When I asked this simple question in an attempt to get you to support or clarify your's and James' position.

Can a man refuse to obey God and still be saved?

Did you even bother reading posts #154 or #155?

Originally Posted by Billyray

A person who IS saved can't go on sinning because he is born again/saved.

1 John 3:9*No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

But that makes no sense when compared with your earlier statement that ALL have sinned and continue to sin even after being saved???

It makes perfect sense, you just refuse to listen to what God has said. We are all sinners, both believers and unbelievers. But those who are born again don't make a practice of sinning BECAUSE they are born again. They become more and more Christlike over time by obeying God. This is evidence that they are saved. Someone who willfully disobeys God IS NOT SAVED.

[Billyray]

Christian
1. Believe we must have faith in Christ
2. Believe in obeying the commandments and doing good works.

Mormonism
1. Believe they must have faith in Christ
2. Believe in obeying the commandments and doing good works.

So what is the difference between the Christian verses Mormon perspective?

Christian
Salvation (which is by faith)----->Results in----->Obedience to the commandments

Mormonism
Obedience to the commandments----->Results in----->Salvation

[theway]

Originally Posted by Billyray

It makes perfect sense, you just refuse to listen to what God has said.

Whoa... Now you are trying to blame God for YOUR contradictions? The false or contradictory statements are all yours Billy.
You said that a saved person "can not refuse to obey God"; but now you are saying that saved people do indeed refuse to obey God by sinning? You can not have it both ways Billyray.

Originally Posted by Billyray

We are all sinners, both believers and unbelievers.

Speak for yourself, I am a Saint, not a sinner

Originally Posted by Billyray

But those who are born again don't make a practice of sinning BECAUSE they are born again. They become more and more Christlike over time by obeying God.

Here is another one of your duplicitous statements you always make. If you call yourself a sinner, then that means you are willfully disobeying God. The amount of times you willfully disobey God does not matter. Therefore, if you are willfully disobeying God, and you believe you are still saved then my first statement was correct.
In your theology, "you can disobey God and still be saved"

Originally Posted by Billyray

This is evidence that they are saved. Someone who willfully disobeys God IS NOT SAVED.

Isn't "willful disobedience of God", the very definition of sin?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

Speak for yourself, I am a Saint, not a sinner

And I know you are not speaking the truth.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

Here is another one of your duplicitous statements you always make. If you call yourself a sinner, then that means you are willfully disobeying God. The amount of times you willfully disobey God does not matter. Therefore, if you are willfully disobeying God, and you believe you are still saved then my first statement was correct.

1 John 3
Message--(Paraphrase-not a translation of the Bible)
9-10*People conceived and brought into life by God don’t make a practice of sin. How could they? God’s seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It’s not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin. Here’s how you tell the difference between God’s children and the Devil’s children: The one who won’t practice righteous ways isn’t from God, nor is the one who won’t love brother or sister. A simple test.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

If you call yourself a sinner, then that means you are willfully disobeying God.

I point out another misperception--from your statement above-- that you and other Mormons have which is that in some cases you can commit a sin and not even be aware that you are even committing it.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

Isn't "willful disobedience of God", the very definition of sin?

No that is not the definition of sin.

1 John 3:4*Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Let me give you a real world example as illustration. Can you break the a law and not even know that you are doing it? Sure. You are driving down the road and the speed limit changes and you didn't see the sign. You are breaking the law but are unaware that you are doing so.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And I know you are not speaking the truth.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

What in the world does that scripture have to do with being a Saint?
Just like I pointed out; you always try to argue two completely unrelated points at the same time, just so you can jump from one to the other when one side backs you into a corner.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Billyray

1 John 3
Message--(Paraphrase-not a translation of the Bible)
9-10*People conceived and brought into life by God don’t make a practice of sin. How could they? God’s seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It’s not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin. Here’s how you tell the difference between God’s children and the Devil’s children: The one who won’t practice righteous ways isn’t from God, nor is the one who won’t love brother or sister. A simple test.

Sorry, not interested In your paraphrase, especially since the actual translation says the opposite of what you want it to say.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Billyray

No that is not the definition of sin.

1 John 3:4*Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Let me give you a real world example as illustration. Can you break the a law and not even know that you are doing it? Sure. You are driving down the road and the speed limit changes and you didn't see the sign. You are breaking the law but are unaware that you are doing so.

That is correct... Under the Laws of Justice "Ignorance of the Law is NO Excuse" the only problem is that since the Atonement we are under Christ's laws, or "justice with mercy".
Even in man's laws I can go to court and if I can prove that there was not a speed limit sign posted, or it was obscured from view, in almost every case I would get off without a mark on my record. This is why you usually see a lady who is blindfolded holding a scale balancing Jusitice and Mercy in front of Court Houses. The same is true with Christ. Under "justice and mercy" I am only held accountable for that which I know.

However in both Civil court and the court of God, you can not go back to court a second time and claim ignoance of the same crime. This is why when you sin after you become a Christain, the sin is greater and the repentance process is longer; not easier. Nor is forgiveness automatic as you guys preach.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

What in the world does that scripture have to do with being a Saint?

Originally Posted by theway

Speak for yourself, I am a Saint, not a sinner

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

It shows that you are a sinner and that you did not tell me the truth.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

Sorry, not interested In your paraphrase, especially since the actual translation says the opposite of what you want it to say.

Because the Bible condemns your false beliefs.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

That is correct... Under the Laws of Justice "Ignorance of the Law is NO Excuse" the only problem is that since the Atonement we are under Christ's laws, or "justice with mercy".
Even in man's laws I can go to court and if I can prove that there was not a speed limit sign posted, or it was obscured from view, in almost every case I would get off without a mark on my record. This is why you usually see a lady who is blindfolded holding a scale balancing Jusitice and Mercy in front of Court Houses. The same is true with Christ. Under "justice and mercy" I am only held accountable for that which I know.

However in both Civil court and the court of God, you can not go back to court a second time and claim ignoance of the same crime. This is why when you sin after you become a Christain, the sin is greater and the repentance process is longer; not easier. Nor is forgiveness automatic as you guys preach.

Originally Posted by theway

Isn't "willful disobedience of God", the very definition of sin?

After all of that you didn't admit that your definition of sin was false.

1 John 3:4*Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Billyray

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

It shows that you are a sinner and that you did not tell me the truth.

No it does not.
This has nothing to do with one becoming a Saint. (but then you already knew that didn't you).
This is just another attempt by you to weasel out.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Billyray

After all of that you didn't admit that your definition of sin was false.

1 John 3:4*Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Because I was not wrong, however you are wrong on both counts.
First, I really don't even want to go down this rabbit hole because it is merely an attempt by you to give me an unwanted ride on your merry-go-round.
Second, while all sin is a transgression of a law, not all transgressions are sins.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Because the Bible condemns your false beliefs.

LOL...What are you talking about???

You are the one who admitted that you had to go outside of the Bible in order to get a version which would line up with your heretical beliefs.
In fact the book you used explicitly says that it is not to be taken as scripture, or used as a Bible.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

No it does not.
This has nothing to do with one becoming a Saint. (but then you already knew that didn't you).

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

So are you saying that you have no sin and that you keep all of the commandments all of the time?