Born spiritually dead

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Now--to the point--your implied thought--that Christ made spirits--- cannot fly because of at least one simple declaration:


John 20:17----King James Version (KJV)


17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Could you explain for us how Christ could have made all spirits--when He Himself conceded the fact that God the Father was not only the God and Father of His Spirit--but also those of mankind ?

BTW--Father is a paternal connection--not a mechanical one.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

But again--"things" could not have included spirits--as Christ testified that God the Father was both the God and Father of His Spirit and of mankind's.

John 20:17----King James Version (KJV)


17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


And if Christ's creation included all things in heaven and earth--visible and invisible--that would have Christ creating God the Father also.

As the scripture testifies:


John 1:1-5----King James Version (KJV)


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Obviously--that did not include spirits.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But again--"things" could not have included spirits--as Christ testified that God the Father was both the God and Father of His Spirit and of mankind's.

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Zechariah 12:1 The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares:

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

John 1:1-5----King James Version (KJV)


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Obviously--that did not include spirits.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But again--"things" could not have included spirits--as Christ testified that God the Father was both the God and Father of His Spirit and of mankind's.

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

Zechariah 12:1 The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares:

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

LDS Bible Dictionary
Jehovah
The covenant or proper name of the God of Israel. It denotes the “Unchangeable One,” “the eternal I AM” (Ex. 6:3; Ps. 83:18; Isa. 12:2; 26:4). The original pronunciation of this name has possibly been lost, as the Jews, in reading, never mentioned it but subs***uted one of the other names of God, usually Adonai. Probably it was pronounced Jahveh, or Yahveh. In the KJV, the Jewish custom has been followed, and the name is generally denoted by Lord or God, printed in small capitals. Jehovah is the premortal Jesus Christ and came to earth being born of Mary. . ."

Hebrews 12
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----But again--"things" could not have included spirits--as Christ testified that God the Father was both the God and Father of His Spirit and of mankind's.

John 20:17----King James Version (KJV)


17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


And if Christ's creation included all things in heaven and earth--visible and invisible--that would have Christ creating God the Father also.

As the scripture testifies:


John 1:1-5----King James Version (KJV)


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Obviously--that did not include spirits.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Zechariah 12:1 The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares:

Does not touch your problem. The scriptures have a qualified statement--- that was made..

Jesus did not create God the Father--nor does it state Christ created spirits--quite to the contrary:



Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?



Again--how could Christ have been the Father of spirits--by creation or otherwise--when He plainly stated that it was God the Father who was the God and Father of spirits--including His own:

John 20:17----King James Version (KJV)


17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


And that is God the Father-- of all spirits:


Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Not the Father of some, Billyray--the Father of all. That excludes Christ as the possible creator of spirits.

[nrajeffreturns]

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Not the Father of some, Billyray--the Father of all.

What kind of father would be described as a father of all His children---but only make salvation accessible to a FEW of those children?

It just doesn't make any sense. No good father would do that. And since the Bible says that God is good, we can deduce that God is not that kind of father. And thus we see a major, heretical flaw in Calvinism.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

What kind of father would be described as a father of all His children---but only make salvation accessible to a FEW of those children?

Salvation is accessible to all Jeff. Nobody is forcing anyone to reject Christ. Everyone has a choice and those who reject Him do so willingly. Those same individuals also willingly sin, breaking God's laws. If you broke the law would it be unfair to punish you for breaking the law?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Salvation is accessible to all Jeff.

Not according to your beliefs and Calvin's teachings. According to you, Jesus didn't die for all. If you are right, then salvation was never possible for all. How much hope for salvation does a person have if he's one of those people who Jesus didn't love enough to die for? Calvin stated that there are people who never had a chance of being saved, because God had ordained or predestined them to destruction back before the Creation.

Nobody is forcing anyone to reject Christ.

According to some Calvinistic Evangelicals like yourself (I think), unregenerated/unsaved people are UNABLE to choose Christ. Because of their, you know, sin nature and unregeneratedness.

If you broke the law would it be unfair to punish you for breaking the law?

Yeah, it would be unfair if the author of the law had made me unable to obey the law due to my nature. Just like it would be unfair to imprison a 2-year-old for jaywalking if he wasn't yet able to understand traffic laws.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Salvation is accessible to all Jeff. Nobody is forcing anyone to reject Christ. Everyone has a choice and those who reject Him do so willingly. Those same individuals also willingly sin, breaking God's laws. If you broke the law would it be unfair to punish you for breaking the law?

That's just plain silly Billyray... How does a person who does not know a God, hence has no idea what God's commandments even are, therefore has no idea he even needs salvation; how does someone like that "willingly sin" and "willingly break the law"?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by theway

That's just plain silly Billyray... How does a person who does not know a God, hence has no idea what God's commandments even are, therefore has no idea he even needs salvation; how does someone like that "willingly sin" and "willingly break the law"?

I agree a new born has no capacity to sin. Still no one I know ever taught a child to lie and yet they lie. No one teaches a child to be cruel and yet if a child is different from his peers in any way children torture them for that difference. If such things are never taught where do they come from? They come from a the heart of a natural being that even LDS scripture says is lives within an enemy of God.. There is no doubt that a new born is a nature being. There is nothing spiritual about them. You are so correct there is no concept of good or evil in them they just are.. If it were not for the Grace of God calling them to Himself, insisting that they be allowed to come to Him; all these that die without repentance would surely be lost..

By the actions of children we can see that evil is what they are. They don't sin and thereby become sinners. No, they sin because they are sinners (Psalm 51:5).. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I agree a new born has no capacity to sin. ...By the actions of children we can see that evil is what they are. They don't sin and thereby become sinners. No, they sin because they are sinners (Psalm 51:5).. IHS jim

You are saying that people who have no capacity to sin, are evil, and that the reason they sin is because they are sinners. Isn't that self-contradictory? It's like saying that a cow with no capacity to kill and eat lions, is a killer and eater of lions...

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

What kind of father would be described as a father of all His children---but only make salvation accessible to a FEW of those children?

It just doesn't make any sense. No good father would do that. And since the Bible says that God is good, we can deduce that God is not that kind of father. And thus we see a major, heretical flaw in Calvinism.

Where is God the Father said to be "the father of all children," Jeff? Some of you have the Devil as your father! Was Jesus' lying? You only can become a child of God by faith in the Biblical Christ. You are mixing up the pseudo-Christianity of Mormonism with the Bible.

Still a little compulsive about Calvin, aren't you. You might end up as one yet.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Where is God the Father said to be "the father of all children," Jeff? Some of you have the Devil as your father! Was Jesus' lying? You only can become a child of God by faith in the Biblical Christ. You are mixing up the pseudo-Christianity of Mormonism with the Bible.

Still a little compulsive about Calvin, aren't you. You might end up as one yet.

LOL... What's a matter CA, have things gotten that boring already over at CARM since you complained enough to have me banned?
What's funny is that it was from the very thread where you went on bragging to everyone about the LDS leaving the forum because they could not argue against you. Turns out that most leave because you keep complaining about them to the Mods until they get banned.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Not according to your beliefs and Calvin's teachings.

The Bible teaches that ANYONE who comes to Christ and places his faith in Him will be saved.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

How much hope for salvation does a person have if he's one of those people who Jesus didn't love enough to die for? Calvin stated that there are people who never had a chance of being saved, because God had ordained or predestined them to destruction back before the Creation.

Every single person makes a choice either to follow Christ or to reject Him. These are willing choices by each individual. Nobody is forcing anyone to reject Christ. Also each individual chooses to obey God's commands or to willingly disobey them.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

According to some Calvinistic Evangelicals like yourself (I think), unregenerated/unsaved people are UNABLE to choose Christ. Because of their, you know, sin nature and unregeneratedness.

Again as noted above individuals choose what they want to choose. The offer to accept Christ is given for every single person to either accept Him or reject Him.

[nrajeffreturns]

So Billy, you're saying that Calvin was a false teacher? If he taught that unregenerated people are UNABLE TO CHOOSE CHRIST, then how can you say that everyone IS ABLE to choose Christ? One of you is teaching false doctrine. Which of you is one of those "beware of false teachers" people the Bible warned me about?

a) You
b) Calvin

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So Billy, you're saying that Calvin was a false teacher? If he taught that unregenerated people are UNABLE TO CHOOSE CHRIST, then how can you say that everyone IS ABLE to choose Christ? One of you is teaching false doctrine. Which of you is one of those "beware of false teachers" people the Bible warned me about?

a) You
b) Calvin

Everyone has a choice to either accept Christ or reject Him. Those who are unregenerate will reject Him based on their willing choice. Calvinists don't teach that a person doesn't have a choice nor do they teach that a person is forced to reject Christ rather they teach that they WILLINGLY reject HIM.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

If he taught that unregenerated people are UNABLE TO CHOOSE CHRIST, then how can you say that everyone IS ABLE to choose Christ?

Every person is commanded to come to Christ. Every person who places their faith in Christ will be saved. This invitation is open to every single person. As I said above those who reject Christ WILLINGLY choose to reject Him. What is also true is those who are unregenerate will not choose to place their faith in Christ. With that said let's look at some of the verses in the Bible that speak about this exact topic. Let's start with John 6:36 and 37. Tell me what they are teaching.

John 6: 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Where is God the Father said to be "the father of all children," Jeff?

Dberrie already quoted it:

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Not the Father of some, Billyray--the Father of all.

Some of you have the Devil as your father!

Yeah, well, some of YOU do, too. What a coincidence.

Still a little compulsive about Calvin, aren't you. You might end up as one yet.

I keep seeing Calvinism's illogic being perpetuated by good evangelicals, so I feel the need to point out how Calvinism CANNOT be the way a good, loving, fair God would do things.

And if we're talking compulsive, how about you and your daily attacks on the LDS? Not just the doctrines, but the people as well. Sounds pretty obsessive to me.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Dberrie already quoted it:

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Not the Father of some, Billyray--the Father of all.

You quoted Apologette but then addressed me. Did you realize that you did that? Anyway let's look at the p***age in context.


Ephesians 4

1.I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Is this section of scripture addressing all mankind OR believers?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I keep seeing Calvinism's illogic being perpetuated by good evangelicals, so I feel the need to point out how Calvinism CANNOT be the way a good, loving, fair God would do things.

But you have yet to show us from the Bible that what you say is true. That is the problem Jeff. For example the Bible says that ALL have sinned and you say that ALL have not sinned. This is contradictory and both can't be true. Should I believe the Bible or you?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You quoted Apologette but then addressed me. Did you realize that you did that?

Actually, I was responding to Apologette's quoestion by quoting Dberrie's response to you, hence the inclusion of Dberrie's comment to you. And now it's apparent that you didn't realize that.

Anyway let's look at the p***age in context. Ephesians 4
1.I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Is this section of scripture addressing all mankind OR believers?

If "all have sinned" means everyone even fetuses, then why can't God is the father of all" mean everyone including even fetuses?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

If "all have sinned" means everyone even fetuses, then why can't God is the father of all" mean everyone including even fetuses?

The Bible says that all have sinned. You on the other hand say that some are perfect. Why do you think that I should believe your opinion over the word of God?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The Bible says that all have sinned.

It also says

18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust"

Are any us of just? If not, then it looks like Christ suffered for all of us.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

It also says

18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust"

Are any of just? If not, then it looks like Christ suffered for all of us.

The verse you posted just confirms what I said that we all sin so I am not sure why you would post a verse that supports my position.