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Thread: Awww, Shucks!

  1. #51
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Yep, there are some fierce divisions between those two groups.
    Let's look and these issues that you feel are "fierce". Let's start with election.

  2. #52
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Let's look and these issues that you feel are "fierce". Let's start with election.
    All you need to do is go over and read on the CARM site, for awhile. I used to post and read in that section almost everyday.

  3. #53
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    All you need to do is go over and read on the CARM site, for awhile. I used to post and read in that section almost everyday.
    You brought it up on this board so let's talk about it. Let's start with election.

    ". . .The majority Arminian view is that election is individual and based on God's foreknowledge of faith. . " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism

  4. #54
    nrajeffreturns
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    Billy, if you want I can put up some quotes from those 2 anti-Calvinism sites. They go into some detail on what they see is false and unbiblical about it.

  5. #55
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    Billy, if you want I can put up some quotes from those 2 anti-Calvinism sites. They go into some detail on what they see is false and unbiblical about it.
    Why don't you join the conversation Jeff. Let's start with election.

  6. #56
    Billyray
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    We will use the majority Arminian view.

    1. Both believe the there are specific individuals who are elect prior to the foundation of the world.

    2. Both believe that those who are elect (before they are even born) will be saved.

    3. Where they differ is why God chooses specific individuals as elect prior to their birth.

  7. #57
    Libby
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    Here's an easy side by side chart that shows the major differences.

    http://www.the-highway.com/compare.html

    Arminian - Conditional Election

    God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

    That's very different from Calvinism.

  8. #58
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Here's an easy side by side chart that shows the major differences.

    http://www.the-highway.com/compare.html

    Arminian - Conditional Election

    God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

    That's very different from Calvinism.
    Not that must differnce at all if you honestly look at it. BTW I already listed for you the agreements and the difference.

    1. Both believe the there are specific individuals who are elect prior to the foundation of the world.

    2. Both believe that those who are elect (before they are even born) will be saved.

    3. Where they differ is why God chooses specific individuals as elect prior to their birth.

    Libby let me ask you from either the Calvinist or the Arminian point of view can a person who is elect prior to his birth can that person become unelect?
    Last edited by Billyray; 05-03-2013 at 12:24 AM.

  9. #59
    Libby
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    Libby let me ask you from either the Calvinist or the Arminian point of view can a person who is elect prior to his birth can that person become unelect?
    Some Arminians believe that even though elect, one can still fall from grace, if faith is neglected.

    I really don't know. I would think that (probably) once God "knows" something....it is fixed.

  10. #60
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Some Arminians believe that even though elect, one can still fall from grace, if faith is neglected.
    But that is inconsistent with their own position that a specific group of individuals are elect from before the foundation of the world.

  11. #61
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post

    I really don't know. I would think that (probably) once God "knows" something....it is fixed.
    If you really think about it the Arminian position is really not that much different than the Calvinist position in that a specific group of individuals are elect before they are even born and this fixed group of individuals will all remain elect and all be saved.

  12. #62
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    If you really think about it the Arminian position is really not that much different than the Calvinist position in that a specific group of individuals are elect before they are even born and this fixed group of individuals will all remain elect and all be saved.
    I think the fact that Arminians believe man has the free will to choose God is a very important difference....and a very big difference.

    Like I said, earlier, it's a big enough difference to have some in each group claiming the other is not Christian.

  13. #63
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I think the fact that Arminians believe man has the free will to choose God is a very important difference....and a very big difference.
    As I mentioned before can a person who is elect before he is even born become unelect?

    BTW you are mischaracterizing the Calvinist position because Calvinists believe that we all make choices and those who reject Christ do so by choice.

  14. #64
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Like I said, earlier, it's a big enough difference to have some in each group claiming the other is not Christian.
    I don't know anyone personally--Arminian or Calvinist--who thinks that those who hold the other position is not Christian. Both share the same belief that those who place their faith in Christ will be saved. They also believe that the elect are "elect" prior to their birth and every single one of them will remain "elect" and be saved. So you are simply trying to create more division and discord among Christians, which to me shows more outward evidence of who you truly are.


    Proverbs 6:16-19 ESV
    There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.
    Last edited by Billyray; 05-03-2013 at 12:19 PM.

  15. #65
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    As I mentioned before can a person who is elect before he is even born become unelect?

    BTW you are mischaracterizing the Calvinist position because Calvinists believe that we all make choices and those who reject Christ do so by choice.
    Sure, you can choose to sin, but you cannot choose God (according to Calvinists). So, what choices do you truly have?

  16. #66
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I don't know anyone personally--Arminian or Calvinist--who thinks that those who hold the other position is not Christian. Both share the same belief that those who place their faith in Christ will be saved. They also believe that the elect are "elect" prior to their birth and every single one of them will remain "elect" and be saved. So you are simply trying to create more division and discord among Christians, which to me shows more outward evidence of who you truly are.


    Proverbs 6:16-19 ESV
    There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.
    Whatever, Billy. I'm not the one sowing discord on a daily basis. That's your department.

  17. #67
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Sure, you can choose to sin, but you cannot choose God (according to Calvinists). So, what choices do you truly have?
    Calvinism teaches that those who reject Christ, reject him based on their own choice.

    BTW those that I know who hold the reformed position follow the Bible not the writings of Calvin or any other person for that matter. And the Bible clearly teaches that we each have choices to either follow Christ or reject him.

  18. #68
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Whatever, Billy. I'm not the one sowing discord on a daily basis. That's your department.
    You don't see me criticizing other Christians on this board "on a daily basis", this is characteristic of you not me. Nor is it characteristic of any other Christian who posts here. That is what I have tried to point out to you but you just don't seem to get it do you Libby?

  19. #69
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Calvinism teaches that those who reject Christ, reject him based on their own choice.

    BTW those that I know who hold the reformed position follow the Bible not the writings of Calvin or any other person for that matter. And the Bible clearly teaches that we each have choices to either follow Christ or reject him.
    Well, if you truly believe that we can choose Christ, of our own free will, without God's intervention, then you're not really a Calvinist....you're an Arminian.

    I AGREE with you that free will is taught in the Bible...but, I'm very surprised to hear YOU say that. Most Calvinists deny that we have free will to choose God.

  20. #70
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    You don't see me criticizing other Christians on this board "on a daily basis", this is characteristic of you not me. Nor is it characteristic of any other Christian who posts here. That is what I have tried to point out to you but you just don't seem to get it do you Libby?
    This is the arrogance of your statement, Billy. Really, you don't have a clue who, here, is Christian and who is not....including amongst the Latter-day Saints.

    Not only that, but I see Christians fighting amongst themselves all the time. It's not "sowing discord" to take notice of that.

    I might argue DOCTRINE with another Christian (like we are doing right here)...if THAT is considered "sowing discord" between "brothers", then there is certainly a lot of discord in the Body of Christ....and YOU are not exempt.

  21. #71
    Libby
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    Arminians are NOT Christian

    Calvinism is utterly Evil

    That's just two of MANY sites where Christians speak emphatically against one or the other!

  22. #72
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post

    That's just two of MANY sites where Christians speak emphatically against one or the other!
    As I said above I personally don't know a single person who holds either view to consider the other as non Christian. Remember just because someone--including yourself--says that they are truly Christian does not mean that they are truly Christian. We are taught in the Bible tares are within the wheat, and these tares are the ones who sow discord in an attempt to discredit Christianity.

    The Arminian AND the Calvinist position both believe that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ.

  23. #73
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    ... Calvinists believe that we all make choices and those who reject Christ do so by choice.
    But according to Calvinism, that "choice" was one where the person had no choice in the matter, since God had DECREED (Calvin's word)--before that person was even created--that the person WOULD, definitely, reject Him.

    In other words, God created a hopeless being. The person had no hope of ever accepting God, and the REASON is that GOD sovereignly created the person to be a vessel of destruction.

    Don't deny that Calvinists teach this, Billy. Seems like every time they say "No we don't believe that" and then I tell them what I said above, they say "But that's what the Bible teaches." Which means that when they denied believing it, they weren't telling the truth.

  24. #74
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    The Arminian AND the Calvinist position both believe that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ.
    Doesn't Calvinism teach that you're saved first, and THEN, you are ABLE to have faith? I think I have been told that the unsaved are unable to have faith in Christ......

  25. #75
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    Doesn't Calvinism teach that you're saved first, and THEN, you are ABLE to have faith? I think I have been told that the unsaved are unable to have faith in Christ......
    No. Salvation takes place at the time of conversion (repentance and faith).

    As far as those who do not come to Christ they choose to reject him.

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