Awww, Shucks!

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

No. Salvation takes place at the time of conversion (repentance and faith).

OK, but which comes first in Calvinism? In what order do those events occur according to Calvinism?

a. Faith
b. repentance
c. conversion
d. salvation

As far as those who do not come to Christ they choose to reject him.

But according to Calvinistic Predestination, weren't those people's choices predestined, or, in Calvin's language, God decreed or ordained that person's rejection of Him, for His glory and pleasure?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

OK, but which comes first in Calvinism? In what order do those events occur according to Calvinism?

a. Faith
b. repentance
c. conversion
d. salvation

Conversion = faith and repentance which results in salvation.

http://www.monergism.com/directory/l.../Ordo-Salutis/
Reformed
1) election/predestination (in Christ),
2) Atonement
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration
6) conversion (faith & repentance),
7) justification,
8) sanctification
9) glorification

Arminian
1) outward call
2) faith/election,
3) repentance,
4) regeneration
5) justification
6) perseverance
7) glorification.

[Libby]

The big difference between the two, as I've said before, is that Arminians believe mankind has the ability to choose God, whereas, Calvinists believe in total depravity and that mankind is so corrupted they don't even have the ability to choose God of their own free will.

Calvinism = God chooses for salvation

Arminianism = Man chooses God of his own free will and God, who is omniscient, knows who will choose Him.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The big difference between the two, as I've said before, is that Arminians believe mankind has the ability to choose God, whereas, Calvinists believe in total depravity and that mankind is so corrupted they don't even have the ability to choose God of their own free will.

OK lets look at it from an Arminian point of view. Can a person who is elect from before the foundation of the world choose not to follow God and become unelect?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

OK lets look at it from an Arminian point of view. Can a person who is elect from before the foundation of the world choose not to follow God and become unelect?

Doesn't matter....they have chosen.

From a Calvinist perspective, they definitely cannot choose. The individual has nothing to do with whether or not he/she chooses God. Nothing.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Doesn't matter....they have chosen.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshol...standings.html
". . .The idea that God's predestination of some to believe is based on foreknowledge of their faith encounters still another problems: upon reflection, this system turns out to give no real freedom to man either. For if God can look into the future and see that person A will come to faith in Christ, and that person B will not come to faith in Christ, then those facts are already fixed, they are already determined. If we ***ume that God's knowledge of the future is true (which it must be), then it is absolutely certain that person A will believe and person B will not. There is no way that their lives could turn out any differently than this. . ."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Doesn't matter....they have chosen.

It does matter. Can you answer my question?

Can a person who is elect from before the foundation of the world choose not to follow God and become unelect?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Doesn't matter....they have chosen.

And Calvinists also believe that individuals have chosen.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

It does matter. Can you answer my question?

Can a person who is elect from before the foundation of the world choose not to follow God and become unelect?

I already answered this question. I'm not going to get on your merry-go-round. You are trying to make it appear that God choosing and the individual choosing are somehow the same...when you know very well, it is NOT the same. That's very dishonest, Billy.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And Calvinists also believe that individuals have chosen.

Again, very dishonest. What it is they have chosen?? What is it that they CANNOT choose? Please answer directly and honestly.

[Libby]

Total depravity (also called absolute inability, radical corruption, or total corruption) is a theological doctrine derived from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Total depravity (also called absolute inability, radical corruption, or total corruption) is a theological doctrine derived from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God

And they make a choice based on their nature to reject Christ. Nobody is forcing them to reject Christ and if they did accept Christ they would be saved. The Bible clearly teaches that we have choices and that we are responsible for those choices.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And they make a choice based on their nature to reject Christ. Nobody is forcing them to reject Christ and if they did accept Christ they would be saved. The Bible clearly teaches that we have choices and that we are responsible for those choices.

If he has a total inability to choose God, he does NOT have a choice to choose him. That's like saying a blind man could really see, if he wanted to or a lame man could really walk, if he'd just get up and do it.

It's nonsense, and you know it.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

If he has a total inability to choose God, he does NOT have a choice to choose him.

Sure he has a choice and the Bible teaches us that we make a choice to either accept Christ or to reject him. Nobody is forcing a person to reject Christ against his will.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sure he has a choice and the Bible teaches us that we make a choice to either accept Christ or to reject him. Nobody is forcing a person to reject Christ against his will.

Very dishonest, Billy...and anyone who is reading this conversation can see that.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Very dishonest, Billy...and anyone who is reading this conversation can see that.

Calvinism doesn't teach that a person does not have a choice, nor does the Bible teach that a person does not have a choice. You are the one who is dishonest by trying to misrepresent their viewpoint.

[Libby]

Can man choose God without God intervening and giving him a new heart? Yes or no?

If he cannot (and you know that is the correct answer for Calvinists) then does he really have a choice to do anything other than sin? Yes or no?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Can man choose God without God intervening and giving him a new heart? Yes or no?

If he cannot (and you know that is the correct answer for Calvinists) then does he really have a choice to do anything other than sin? Yes or no?

Man without being regenerated will willfully choose to reject Christ. He makes a choice based on what he wants to do.

[Billyray]

BTW I could make the exact same augment against the Arminian position. But obviously you have been blind to that fact.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

BTW I could make the exact same augment against the Arminian position. But obviously you have been blind to that fact.

No, you really couldn't, because Arminians do not believe in the total depravity of man. They believe we are ABLE to choose God with our own will. Calvinists do not believe that, despite your constant attempts to twist it and make it APPEAR that they can choose God. That's very deceitful, Billy, when you know better.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

No, you really couldn't,

Sure I can and I already have. Let me give you an example. If I knew everything that you are going to do tomorrow can you choose something different?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sure I can and I already have. Let me give you an example. If I knew everything that you are going to do tomorrow can you choose something different?

That has absolutely nothing to do with the differences that you and I both know are there.

[Libby]

Does unregenerate man have the ABILITY to choose God?

You are not answering my questions.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Does unregenerate man have the ABILITY to choose God?

The same exact argument can be used for the Arminian position Libby. Do you realize that?

Does unregenerate man have the ABILITY to choose God? (Calvinism)

Does unelect man have the ABILITY to choose God? (Arminian)

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The same exact argument can be used for the Arminian position Libby. Do you realize that?

Does unregenerate man have the ABILITY to choose God? (Calvinism)

Does unelect man have the ABILITY to choose God? (Arminian)

The unelect at least HAD a choice...a real choice! In Calvinism, we have no choice. Supposedly, God chooses.