Awww, Shucks!

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The unelect at least HAD a choice...a real choice!

And so does the unregenerate man.

You are still not getting it are you?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And so does the unregenerate man.

You are still not getting it are you?

I "get it" just fine. You are the one who is twisting and turning in the wind.

If one cannot choose God (and in fact, God chooses THEM), they have NO CHOICE, other than to sin.

If God allows MAN the choice (a real choice, from his own free will) then he did, indeed, have a real choice. Whether or not that choice can be changed, because God knows about it, makes not one wit of difference. I am talking about man's freedom to choose God. Or lack thereof.

[Libby]

This is also goes to culpability, IMO. I don't believe man can be held responsible for NOT choosing something he had NO ability to choose, to begin with.

Like I said, it would be like telling a blind man to see.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I "get it" just fine.

OK then tell me why you think that the arguments are any different?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't believe man can be held responsible for NOT choosing something he had NO ability to choose, to begin with.
.

Then you would agree that the same is true with the Arminian position. Right?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Then you would agree that the same is true with the Arminian position. Right?

Why would I, when the choice is man's? Not the same, Billy, no matter how you try to twist it.

You're not very good at owning up to your own beliefs. I think you know there is something not right about them.

[Billyray]

Here is the way I see it for both positions.

1. The person makes a choice.

2. However one could argue for both position that the choice is not a real choice.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Why would I, when the choice is man's?

Can a person who is unelect before he is even born choose to follow Christ?

[Libby]

Well, I think you are completely wrong, especially, if we are talking about beliefs - Arminian vs Calvinist. There are, indeed, some profound differences between the two that you don't seem to want to own up to.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

You're not very good at owning up to your own beliefs. I think you know there is something not right about them.

I certainly own up to my beliefs but you seem to having a real hard time trying to show me that there is a difference between the two positions with respect to your own argument.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Well, I think you are completely wrong, especially, if we are talking about beliefs - Arminian vs Calvinist. There are, indeed, some profound differences between the two that you don't seem to want to own up to.

OK tell me how your argument against Calvinsim doesn't equally apply to Arminianism?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can a person who is unelect before he is even born choose to follow Christ?

No, but God knows who will choose (of their own free will) and who will decline (of their own free will).

Calvinists have God choosing who will be saved..and by default, who will not be saved. No real choice for anyone, other than to sin. Total depravity. It has a definition. You seem to be ignoring it. Do you not believe in it?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I certainly own up to my beliefs but you seem to having a real hard time trying to show me that there is a difference between the two positions with respect to your own argument.

Calvinism = God choosing for salvation

Arminianism = man choosing for salvation (with his own free will)

You know this, Billy, and I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

Off the merry-go-round.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Calvinism = God choosing for salvation

Arminianism = man choosing for salvation (with his own free will)

But you haven't shown me why your argument doesn't apply in the same way to Arminianism since I have shown you multiple times now that it does.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Arminianism = man choosing for salvation (with his own free will)

From the Arminian point of view

Can a person who is elect before he is even born ever choose to reject Christ?

Can a person who is unelect before he is even born ever choose to accept Christ?

[Libby]

WHAT argument?

You are trying to claim that just because God knows something there was NO choice to begin with. That's simply not true.

I agree that when God knows something, it "probably" cannot be changed, but that doesn't mean there was no choice to begin with (as in Calvinism, where God, supposedly, does the choosing).

You are twisting things and trying to make them the same, when they are clearly not.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

WHAT argument?

You are trying to claim that just because God knows something there was NO choice to begin with.

From the Arminian point of view

Can a person who is elect before he is even born ever choose to reject Christ?

Can a person who is unelect before he is even born ever choose to accept Christ?

[Libby]

Can a person who is unelect before he is even born ever choose to accept Christ?

God sees into the future that this person will not choose Christ. Still, he did have the free will choice, whether or not to accept Christ.

Does your Calvinism give anyone that ability to choose Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

God sees into the future that this person will not choose Christ.

Why don't you answer my question?

Can a person who is unelect before he is even born ever choose to accept Christ?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why don't you answer my question?

Can a person who is unelect before he is even born ever choose to accept Christ?

Can the person who will not accept Christ during his lifetime, choose Christ? The decision has already been made...by that person.

God is in the eternal present, anyway, so he doesn't really see past or future...he only sees NOW.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The decision has already been made...by that person.

So you would agree then that you cannot choose anything different in the future since it has already been decided what you will do today, tomorrow, next week etc.?

And you call that free choice?

[Libby]

You are trying to claim that just because God knows something there was NO choice to begin with. That's simply not true.

I agree that when God knows something, it "probably" cannot be changed, but that doesn't mean there was no choice to begin with (as in Calvinism, where God, supposedly, does the choosing).

You are twisting things and trying to make them the same, when they are clearly not.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can a person who is unelect before he is even born ever choose to accept Christ?

No, according to Calvinism. In Calvinism, the people whom God decided to create unable to ever choose Him, are DOOMED to be forever unable to choose Him. That's what makes Calvinism so messed up, IMO.
P.S.--Arminianism and Calvinism can't be that close to each other, or Father JD wouldn't have said that Arminians believe stuff that is unbiblical.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

No, according to Calvinism. In Calvinism, the people whom God decided to create unable to ever choose Him, are DOOMED to be forever unable to choose Him. That's what makes Calvinism so messed up, IMO.
P.S.--Arminianism and Calvinism can't be that close to each other, or Father JD wouldn't have said that Arminians believe stuff that is unbiblical.

Yes, and that is mild compared to what I saw from a couple of other posters over there. There was one called rhuckle (or something like that) who hated Arminians and thought they were going straight to hell.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

You are trying to claim that just because God knows something there was NO choice to begin with. That's simply not true.

From either the Calvinist or the Arminian perspective isn't the fate of every single person fixed BEFORE they are even born?