Awww, Shucks!

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sure it is set in stone Libby. If God is all knowing and he knows exactly what you will do before you are even born then your entire life is planned out for every detail of your life. Certainly someone live yourself could say that you really don't have any choices.

It is not "planned out", Billy. It is known how you will live it. There is a difference.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You see you have no Biblical verses to support your position but if feels right to you so you ***ert it to be true.

Do you deny that Adam and Eve had free will? Do you believe God predestined Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Do you deny that Adam and Eve had free will? Do you believe God predestined Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit?

How are you defining free will?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

It is not "planned out", Billy. It is known how you will live it. There is a difference.

Does God know exactly what you will eat for breakfast tomorrow? Do you have a choice to change that?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

How are you defining free will?

Having the ability to choose between good and evil.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Does God know exactly what you will eat for breakfast tomorrow? Do you have a choice to change that?

Yes, I have a chance to change that, because God is in the ever present NOW.

But, if I've already chosen, why would I change it?

You are mistaking God's knowing as, somehow, limiting our free will. That's simply not the case.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, I have a chance to change that, because God is in the ever present NOW.

If you can change that then you must believe what LDS scholars believe that God is not omniscient.

Originally Posted by Billyray

http://maxwellins***ute.byu.edu//pub...226456-8-2.pdf

'. . .Suppose that God has always believed that I will rob a 7–Eleven at a certain time t. My refraining from robbing the 7–Eleven at time t certainly entails that God has not always believed that I will rob at t. Because God has always believed that I will rob the 7–Eleven at t, I cannot have the power to refrain from robbing, since this power would entail power to change God’s past beliefs. No person has the power to alter the past. Yet to be free with respect to whether I rob, I must have power to refrain from robbing the 7–Eleven at t. It follows that either God does not have foreknowledge or I am not free. . ."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Having the ability to choose between good and evil.

The Calvinists believe that we all--including the unelect--choose between good and evil.

Perhaps you need to modify your definition.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The Calvinists believe that we all--including the unelect--choose between good and evil.

Perhaps you need to modify your definition.

Calvinists do not. They don't believe man can choose good of his own free will. He is not able. Total depravity, remember?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Calvinists do not.

Sure they do. Wayne Grudem holds the reformed position and he certainly teaches that man has a choice and that he is responsible for that choice. He also teaches that if a person is not elect his choice will be to reject Christ. This is also the position that is taught in the Bible.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Calvinists do not. They don't believe man can choose good of his own free will. He is not able. Total depravity, remember?

Wikipedia Calvinism

"Total depravity," also called "total inability," ***erts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person is enslaved to sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God but rather to serve their own interests and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures"

[alanmolstad]

I have been on the road for the last 2 weeks....anything new here?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Wikipedia Calvinism

"Total depravity," also called "total inability," ***erts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person is enslaved to sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God but rather to serve their own interests and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures"

Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally UNABLE to choose to follow God

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally UNABLE to choose to follow God

And why is that? Because they are unwilling to do so.

Libby Calvinism teaches that we all have a choice and those who reject Christ choose to do so.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Wikipedia Calvinism

"Total depravity," also called "total inability," ***erts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person is enslaved to sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God but rather to serve their own interests and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures"

Billyray--where do you believe their natures come from?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray--where do you believe their natures come from?

As a result of the fall of Adam

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

As a result of the fall of Adam

Billyray--all men were condemned due to the Fall. That fell on all men up to the Atonement.

All men were Redeemed due to the Atonement--one cannot differentiate one man from another min either of those events--if a nature fell on one man--it fell on them all. The Atonement was to Redeemed all men from the condemnation of the Fall--not just a few. You can't maintain your stance if that is true:


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

All men were Redeemed due to the Atonement--one cannot differentiate one man from another min either of those events--if a nature fell on one man--it fell on them all. The Atonement was to Redeemed all men from the condemnation of the Fall--not just a few. You can't maintain your stance if that is true:


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Define justification one more time for me.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And why is that? Because they are unwilling to do so.

Libby Calvinism teaches that we all have a choice and those who reject Christ choose to do so.

You've got the cart before the horse, Billy. It says that men are unwilling to choose God, because of their nature (total depravity), which causes them to be UNABLE to choose God.

Their condition, which is total depravity, completely mired in the flesh, causes them to be UNABLE to choose God of their own free will.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

You've got the cart before the horse, Billy. It says that men are unwilling to choose God, because of their nature (total depravity), which causes them to be UNABLE to choose God.

Their condition, which is total depravity, completely mired in the flesh, causes them to be UNABLE to choose God of their own free will.

Again why is that? because they are unwilling to do so

Libby, the Bible teaches that we all have a choice to either accept Christ or reject Him and we are responsible for that choice. This is consistent with other Calvinists that I have heard speak on this matter such as Wayne Grudem who holds the Reformed position.

[Billyray]

Libby why do you believe the Arminian position is the correct one with respect to election rather than the Calvinist position?

[Libby]

I'm done with you, Billy.

Off your carousel that goes in both directions, depending on what you are trying to prove.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I'm done with you, Billy.

Perhaps you realize that you are wrong and can't back up your false beliefs by using the Bible. I hope this is the case.

[Libby]

Testimonies from Christians:

When men speak of the "age of accountability", they refer to that time when men become accountable to God because of sin. This accountability is based upon knowledge. The tree forbidden by God was a tree of knowledge of good and evil. Babies do not possess that knowledge. They have no shame in nakedness and they do not fear God. (This is also true of those who have the mind of a child.) Without the knowledge of right and wrong, there is no accountability before God.

Romans 10:9-10 says, "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." If babies sin, how can they fulfill Romans 10:9-10? They cannot confess with their mouth and believe in their heart what they do not understand. Their hearts cannot believe righteousness without knowledge and their mouths cannot make confession unto salvation. To baptize a baby is no more than getting the head wet (infant baptism is not even baptism=immersion). Babies do not sin.

By Kent Heaton

http://www.simplebiblestudies.com/GAbabiesin.htm

http://www.topicalbiblestudies.com/original-sin.php

The Arminian view on this (Arminians are Christians, right?)

The other view (held primarily by Armenians, anabaptists, and a number of other
Christan religions) teaches that we are not born as sinners per se, but rather, we are born with a "sin nature." In other words, man is not forced to sin because
he has the "sin gene" p***ed on to him from Adam, but instead, he has the "free will"
choice to sin or not. He is also able to believe in God (Jn 3:16,18,36)(Jn 1:12)
(Eph 1:13)(Heb 11:6)(Jn 8:24), repent (Acts 3:19)(2 Cor 7:10)(Lk 13:3,5)(Mt 4:17)
(Acts 11:18)(Mk 1:15), and call upon the Lord (Rom 10:12-14)(Acts 2:21) in order to
be saved without first being regenerated.

http://jesusalive.cc/ques156.htm

In other words, Billy is trying to claim that these people, who are accepted as Christians, by most Calvinists, as well as the rest of the Body of Christ, and who teach and believe, just as I have, that babies do not sin, but possess a "sin nature", are "false teachers". Is that right, Billy? This Arminian belief makes all Arminians "false teachers"?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

In other words, Billy is trying to claim that these people, who are accepted as Christians, by most Calvinists, as well as the rest of the Body of Christ, and who teach and believe, just as I have, that babies do not sin, but possess a "sin nature", are "false teachers". Is that right, Billy? This Arminian belief makes all Arminians "false teachers"?

It is not just this belief but many beliefs that you hold along with the fact that you reject sections of scripture that is not consistent with being a Christian. Along with the fact that your main purposisoniazid this board seems to be to sew discord among fellow Christians rather than discuss Mormonism which is the focus of this board.