Awww, Shucks!

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

This Arminian belief makes all Arminians "false teachers"?

I know many Arminians and we disagree in very few areas and I never see the discord that I see from you. In my opinion you are here to simply stir up trouble.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Libby why do you believe the Arminian position is the correct one with respect to election rather than the Calvinist position?

Libby do you have any answers with Biblical verses for me or not?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

When men speak of the "age of accountability", they refer to that time when men become accountable to God because of sin. This accountability is based upon knowledge. The tree forbidden by God was a tree of knowledge of good and evil. Babies do not possess that knowledge. They have no shame in nakedness and they do not fear God. (This is also true of those who have the mind of a child.) Without the knowledge of right and wrong, there is no accountability before God.


By Kent Heaton

Notice he mentioned accountability not sin. We have already discussed the difference were you asleep when we talked about this?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I know many Arminians and we disagree in very few areas and I never see the discord that I see from you. In my opinion you are here to simply stir up trouble.

You know, Billy, you are the one who loves to argue endlessly and always has to be right, no matter how wrong you have been shown to be. You are actually the one stirring trouble.

I believe a lot of what you believe, but you never focus there. Babies not sinning is really not a huge issue and there are varying beliefs on it, even within the Body of Christ. But, you just don't want to admit that and let it go...you seem to want to argue endlessly. I should not indulge you in that (a lot of other people have stopped). I would rather just agree to disagree and acknowledge that there are differing beliefs on that one issue. Can you do that?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

You know, Billy, you are the one who loves to argue endlessly and always has to be right, no matter how wrong you have been shown to be. You are actually the one stirring trouble.

First off you have yet to back up any of your beliefs from the Bible, rather you seem to take your beliefs from you feelings. Second you are the one who has persisted in stirring up discord among Christians and this is not just with me but with most of the other Christians who have posted on this board. You seem uninterested in actually sticking to the topic of this forum which is Mormonism. Are you totally unaware of this?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Notice he mentioned accountability not sin. We have already discussed the difference were you asleep when we talked about this?

Read further. Don't just read the small part you think agrees with you.

This accountability is based upon knowledge. The tree forbidden by God was a tree of knowledge of good and evil. Babies do not possess that knowledge.

If you don't possess a knowledge of "good and evil", you are innocent, as Adam and Eve were, before they ate of the fruit. They were not ashamed of their nakedness; they were without guile. They were not sinners, not until they ate of the fruit of the tree and gained knowledge of "good and evil".

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

First off you have yet to back up any of your beliefs from the Bible, rather you seem to take your beliefs from you feelings. Second you are the one who has persisted in stirring up discord among Christians and this is not just with me but with most of the other Christians who have posted on this board. You seem uninterested in actually sticking to the topic of this forum which is Mormonism. Are you totally unaware of this?

And you are the one who said you didn't mind discussing Calvinism and other such matters, even though they are not the subject of this forum.

Babies not sinning is also a belief of Mormonism, only for slightly different reasons, than Arminians.

I have not "stirred any trouble" here. I've mostly been discussing with you. You just don't like the way the discussion has gone.

And, yes, there are Bible verses and I have posted them in the many links I have provided. This belief is very well established in the Bible, as noted in my post above.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

And you are the one who said you didn't mind discussing Calvinism and other such matters, even though they are not the subject of this forum.

Babies not sinning is also a belief of Mormonism, only for slightly different reasons, than Arminians.

I don't mind speaking about Calvinism verses Arminianism at all. But you have yet to support any of your beliefs from the Bible. And even your non Biblical quote was speaking about accountability which is different from sin. And we have already discussed in in prior posts.

Not only do you not want to talk about Mormonism you don't seem to want to discuss what the Bible even says. You just want to cause strife. I gave you ample time to support the Arminian position with respect to election but this far you don't even seem interested to find any support for it from the Bible.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I have not "stirred any trouble" here. I've mostly been discussing with you. You just don't like the way the discussion has gone.

The way that our discussion has gone is that you have thus far fallen flat on your face and you have yet to actually address any of the verses that I have given you, nor have you given me any support for your position. Don't you agree that this is how our discussion has gone thus far in this thread?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Libby why do you believe the Arminian position is the correct one with respect to election rather than the Calvinist position?

You want to talk about Calvinism are you ever going to address my question?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I'm done with you, Billy.

I didn't expect you to keep your word Libby.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I don't mind speaking about Calvinism verses Arminianism at all. But you have yet to support any of your beliefs from the Bible. And even your non Biblical quote was speaking about accountability which is different from sin. And we have already discussed in in prior posts.

Not only do you not want to talk about Mormonism you don't seem to want to discuss what the Bible even says. You just want to cause strife. I gave you ample time to support the Arminian position with respect to election but this far you don't even seem interested to find any support for it from the Bible.

As I said, I have given you biblical support for this Arminian belief that babies cannot sin. It is centered around Genesis and the story of Adam and Eve. You never accept biblical references, even when they are given. You just ignore it and continue quoting what you believe supports your position. That's fine, but at some point, we both have to agree to disagree.

I don't mind discussing Mormonism. What do you want to talk about?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I didn't expect you to keep your word Libby.

Hey, when you keep insulting me, as you do, I am probably going to defend myself...just as you or anyone else would.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

As I said, I have given you biblical support for this Arminian belief that babies cannot sin. It is centered around Genesis and the story of Adam and Eve.

What verses state that babies do not sin because nothing thus far has stated this?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Hey, when you keep insulting me, as you do, I am probably going to defend myself...just as you or anyone else would.

How can you defend yourself against the truth? It is your fault that you take the truth as an insult.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You want to talk about Calvinism are you ever going to address my question?

Nope. We have already had that discussion. It has to do with culpability. I don't believe Calvinism allows for human culpability, when it gives all of the responsibility for salvation to God. But, more importantly, I don't believe it is biblically supported, either. Too many places in the Bible that give man responsibility for not turning to God or doing as God commanded. If man were not ABLE to turn to God, then why would God expect it?

Not going another twenty rounds on that.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

How can you defend yourself against the truth? It is your fault that you take the truth as an insult.

Very funny. Because it's NOT the truth. I would tell you the "truth" about yourself, except I am not going to break the rules of this forum, as you have.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What verses state that babies do not sin because nothing thus far has stated this?

SIGH I don't think you're really this unintelligent, Billy. Did you read the links I provided? Did you hear what I said TWICE now, about Adam and Eve? Is that not biblical??

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Nope. We have already had that discussion. It has to do with culpability. I don't believe Calvinism allows for human culpability, when it gives all of the responsibility for salvation to God. But, more importantly, I don't believe it is biblically supported, either. Too many places in the Bible that give man responsibility for not turning to God or doing as God commanded. If man were not ABLE to turn to God, then why would God expect it?

Not going another twenty rounds on that.

Can't you even recognize that you are not supporting your beliefs from the Bible but rather on your feelings?

My question was what Biblical support do you have for claiming that the reason that God choose the elect was based on Him looking into the future and seeing a person's faith as the sole reason for electing them?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

SIGH I don't think you're really this unintelligent, Billy. Did you read the links I provided? Did you hear what I said TWICE now, about Adam and Eve? Is that not biblical??

Give me a verse that says that babies and young children do not sin.

BTW I gave you multiple verses that say that ALL have sinned. Are you ever going to address those verses? Just to remind you we are talking about sin NOT about accountability for sin like the quote that you gave me that you thought supported your position but in reality it did not.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Give me a verse that says that babies and young children do not sin.

BTW I gave you multiple verses that say that ALL have sinned. Are you ever going to address those verses? Just to remind you we are talking about sin NOT about accountability for sin like the quote that you gave me that you thought supported your position but in reality it did not.

There is obviously no verse (that I know of) that says "specifically" that babies do not sin. Nor is there one that says "specifically" that babies DO sin. That's why this subject is contentious.

You have heard my thoughts and reasoning on this, which is in conjunction with most other Arminian believers. Take it or leave it.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can't you even recognize that you are not supporting your beliefs from the Bible but rather on your feelings?

My question was what Biblical support do you have for claiming that the reason that God choose the elect was based on Him looking into the future and seeing a person's faith as the sole reason for electing them?

Scriptures used to support
These are Scriptures commonly used in support of Conditional election
Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth, for I am God, and there is no other."
Mathew 11:28 Jesus said "Come to me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 7:17 "If any man is willing to do His will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it is of God, or whether I speak from Myself."
John 7:37 "Now on the last day of the great feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying "If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink."
John 12:32 Jesus said "And if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Myself
Romans 8:29-30 [NIV] "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son [...] And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."
Acts 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now commanding all men everywhere to repent."
1 Timothy 2:3-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
2 Peter 3:9 " The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."
Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Scriptures used to support
These are Scriptures commonly used in support of Conditional election
Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth, for I am God, and there is no other."
Mathew 11:28 Jesus said "Come to me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 7:17 "If any man is willing to do His will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it is of God, or whether I speak from Myself."
John 7:37 "Now on the last day of the great feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying "If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink."
John 12:32 Jesus said "And if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Myself
Romans 8:29-30 [NIV] "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son [...] And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."
Acts 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now commanding all men everywhere to repent."
1 Timothy 2:3-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
2 Peter 3:9 " The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."
Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

Do any of the verses in your list make any mention at all that the basis for God electing specific individuals was based on God looking forward in time and seeing that a person had faith as the basis for their election?

BTW why do you say conditional election? Either a person is elect from before the foundation of the earth or he is not.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Do any of the verses in your list make any mention at all that the basis for God electing specific individuals was based on God looking forward in time and seeing that a person had faith as the basis for their election?

No, but those verses DO show that God knows that we have the ability to turn to him of our own free will. And, also, in 1 Timothy and other verses, that it is His intention and desire to save "all men", if they come to him willingly.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

No, but those verses DO show that God knows that we have the ability to turn to him of our own free will.

That is not what Jesus taught

John 6:36*But you haven’t believed in me even though you have seen me. 37*However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them.

John 6:44*For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up