Faith vs Works for Salvation

[Libby]

I don't think, either, Mormons nor Orthodox Christians believe that we can be saved by "works" alone, so that is not really the crux of the disagreement, between these two factions.

Here is the difference, as I see it.

Orthodox Christians believe that faith alone is the saving principle. Works spring from faith, but do not add to salvation.

LDS believe that faith and works are inseparable (two sides of the same coin) and, therefore, works do contribute towards salvation. There really is no salvation (in the Celestial Kingdom, at least), unless there is also obedience through works.

Does this properly represent the crux of both sides of this argument?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't think, either, Mormons nor Orthodox Christians believe that we can be saved by "works" alone, so that is not really the crux of the disagreement, between these two factions.

You are really going off the deep end now Libby if you don't see the difference between Christianity and Mormonism with respect to salvation.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You are really going off the deep end now Libby if you don't see the difference between Christianity and Mormonism with respect to salvation.

What are you talking about??

I just delineated the DIFFERENCE.

You are the one "off the deep end"....always so ready to condemn, even when you don't understand.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

What are you talking about??

I just delineated the DIFFERENCE.

You are the one "off the deep end"....always so ready to condemn, even when you don't understand.

I did read your post again and you did get the Christian part right in the third paragraph. LDS believe in faith AND works for salvation. Christians believe that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ and works do not contribute for salvation.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

LDS believe in faith AND works for salvation. Christians believe that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ and works do not contribute for salvation.

Yes, exactly. Did you read my post?? That is exactly what I said.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, exactly. Did you read my post?? That is exactly what I said.

See post 4

Originally Posted by Billyray

I did read your post again and you did get the Christian part right in the third paragraph. LDS believe in faith AND works for salvation. Christians believe that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ and works do not contribute for salvation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't think, either,

How can you say that it isn't either when you then go on to say that Christians believe that salvation is by faith and not by works?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

How can you say that it isn't either when you then go on to say that Christians believe that salvation is by faith and not by works?

Aye.

I am simply saying that Mormons don't believe in "work alone" for salvation, as many Christians seem to believe. They believe in a combination of faith and work for salvation.

And, for the record, I am in the "faith alone" category. I am not defending LDS belief. Simply clarifying, in order to get a proper discussion going (where we are all on the same page).

You and I are in agreement here, Billy, so just relax and go with it.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Aye.

I am simply saying that Mormons don't believe in "work alone" for salvation, as many Christians seem to believe. They believe in a combination of faith and work for salvation.

First you were wrong when you said "either". And you were wrong to ***ume that any Christian on this forum believes that Mormons don't believe they need to have faith along with works. A straw man argument on your part.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

First you were wrong when you said "either". And you were wrong to ***ume that any Christian on this forum believes that Mormons don't believe they need to have faith along with works. A straw man argument on your part.

Not at all. Neither Christians nor Mormons believe in "work alone" for salvation. That is absolutely the truth.

Secondly, just because the couple of Christians on this board don't misunderstand that, doesn't mean all critics know this. I have met several who have made that claim.

Just trying to clarify (for lurkers or whomever wanders in here). You don't have to get your feathers ruffled over nothing, Billy. I know all you want to do is fight....and can't tolerate that we might actually agree on some things, but you're just gonna have to cope with that.

[Libby]

After I get some agreement on the OP, I will put up a defense for salvation through "faith alone".

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Not at all. Neither Christians nor Mormons believe in "work alone" for salvation. That is absolutely the truth.

Here is what you said.

"Faith vs Works for Salvation
I don't think, either. . ."

It is either for Christianity. Christians believe that it is by faith and not by works.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Secondly, just because the couple of Christians on this board don't misunderstand that, doesn't mean all critics know this. I have met several who have made that claim.

No Christians on this board-- that I have ever seen--have made the claim that mormons believe that faith is not required for salvation. A pure straw man argument.

[Libby]

No straw argument, since I know some who do make this argument. And, just because they are not on this board, doesn't mean they are not lurking.

Anyway, does anyone have a problem with the differences I cited in the OP?

Here is the difference, as I see it.

Orthodox Christians believe that faith alone is the saving principle. Works spring from faith, but do not add to salvation.

LDS believe that faith and works are inseparable (two sides of the same coin) and, therefore, works do contribute towards salvation. There really is no salvation (in the Celestial Kingdom, at least), unless there is also obedience through works.

[Libby]

I'm going to present some Bible verses that I believe support the "faith alone" view. When I say "faith alone", I simply mean that we are saved based on faith in Jesus Christ...that he is our Savior and Redeemer. Good works will naturally spring from that faith, but the works are a byproduct (the fruit of salvation) and not a part of our actual salvation, which is by grace through faith, alone.

John 3:18, 36
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 16:30-31
Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 3:20, 28
By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight. A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory? (v.28)
Romans 4:13
For the promise ... was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 5:1
Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

That's a few for starters.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I'm going to present some Bible verses that I believe support the "faith alone" view. .

who teaches that we are saved by "faith alone"...?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

who teaches that we are saved by "faith alone"...?

Most Protestant Churches, Alan.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Most Protestant Churches, Alan.

Salvation is by faith and works do not contribute for salvation.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Salvation is by faith and works do not contribute for salvation.

Yes, well, you need to direct that to Alan, as he is the one who implied that we are not saved by faith alone. I happen to agree with you and have set out to provide evidence for that belief.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, well, you need to direct that to Alan, as he is the one who implied that we are not saved by faith alone. I happen to agree with you and have set out to provide evidence for that belief.

>>>>>

I quoted dr Walter Martin...I posted the link to the video where he goes on to make this point very clear and provides the Bible verses that support this understanding.

We are not saved by Faith alone.
We are not saved by Works alone
We are not saved by faith and works
We are not saved by works and faith.

We are ONLY saved by Grace though faith and not by works.

Now here is the video that makes this clear.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M .PLEASE listen to it,(it's short)and try not to ask a question that is answered on the video more clearly than i could ever match.







case-closed...

[The Pheonix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

>>>>>

I quoted dr Walter Martin...I posted the link to the video where he goes on to make this point very clear and provides the Bible verses that support this understanding.

We are not saved by Faith alone.
We are not saved by Works alone
We are not saved by faith and works
We are not saved by works and faith.

We are ONLY saved by Grace though faith and not by works.

Now here is the video that makes this clear.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M .PLEASE listen to it,(it's short)and try not to ask a question that is answered on the video more clearly than i could ever match.







case-closed...

So you are closing the door to debate?

[alanmolstad]

see,,,,you go on, and on telling everyone how you reject the christian church teachings I share with you on salvation, but yet when you try to define what im saying you only show how very little you know of what I speak...

So it's a bit hard for me to deal with what you are saying, and deal with the things you are rejecting when what you are rejecting is not actually part of the Teachings you are hearing from me or Billy....


So dont ask me to defend the "faith alone' teachings when i have told you over and over and OVER that no such teachings are in the church or in the BIBLE!.,.....

[Libby]

Really, I have no idea what you are rambling on about, Alan.

Fact is, I have spent more time in Protestant Churches than any other (including the LDS Church).

Yes, I took a detour, for a bit, last year, but never lost my faith in Christ (which is why I am back in a mainstream church, at this time).

As for "faith alone" (and, yes, I agree it is by grace through faith that we are saved, Ephesians 2:8) it is a staple of mainstream Protestant Churches...so, I have to wonder how much you really know about Protestantism.

"Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and some in the Restoration Movement."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide

[Libby]

I really got the feel for salvation by grace through faith, along time ago, when a dear friend of mine spent a lot of time with me, going through the Bible verses on this and really bringing it home for me. I wish I had his gift for teaching....although, really, it was coming from his center in Christ, I believe.

I remember being very impressed by the idea that God/Christ is doing the saving...and it has to be that way, because he is perfectly Holy, perfectly perfect.. and the only one who can do this work. Our "egoic" works are tainted with sin, because of our nature and just cannot be acceptable before God. That is why Christ had to die for us. The perfectly unblemished lamb...

Nothing at all we can do other than accept that perfect sacrifice.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

I really got the feel for salvation by grace through faith, along time ago, when a dear friend of mine spent a lot of time with me, going through the Bible verses on this and really bringing it home for me. I wish I had his gift for teaching....although, really, it was coming from his center in Christ, I believe.

I remember being very impressed by the idea that God/Christ is doing the saving...and it has to be that way, because he is perfectly Holy, perfectly perfect.. and the only one who can do this work. Our "egoic" works are tainted with sin, because of our nature and just cannot be acceptable before God. That is why Christ had to die for us. The perfectly unblemished lamb...

Nothing at all we can do other than accept that perfect sacrifice.

You said it pretty well here Libby.. Now if someone rejects the gift of salvation through faith in Jesus and goes about trying to established their salvation through there own efforts are such people saved or just deluding themselves in their own self righteous? IHS jim