Faith vs Works for Salvation

[Libby]

Really, I have no idea what you are rambling on about, Alan.

Fact is, I have spent more time in Protestant Churches than any other (including the LDS Church).

Yes, I took a detour, for a bit, last year, but never lost my faith in Christ (which is why I am back in a mainstream church, at this time).

As for "faith alone" (and, yes, I agree it is by grace through faith that we are saved, Ephesians 2:8) it is a staple of mainstream Protestant Churches...so, I have to wonder how much you really know about Protestantism.

"Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and some in the Restoration Movement."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide

[alanmolstad]

Here is what i thyink i need to do...

I need to have you listen to only a few seconds of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M

click on about the 0:30 second mark, and listen for about 10 seconds...


Just give me 10 seconds of your time to help you see that we are NOT saying that salvation is by "faith alone"



Here is your question....
at the 0:30 second point of the video what does walter martin say about being saved by faith alone, or saved by faith and works, or any combination?


well?......

[alanmolstad]

just look at the video.....give me 10 seconds or your time....

[Libby]

I'm not really interested in what Walter Martin has to say about it. I am more interested in what the Bible says about it.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

just look at the video.....give me 10 seconds or your time....

Okay, he is saying exactly what I said and what the Bible says. Salvation is by grace through faith alone.

Next?

[Libby]

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Okay, he is saying exactly what I said and what the Bible says. Salvation is by grace through faith alone.

Next?

This simple message is at the heart of the Bible and the Church....

This is all I have ever said on the topic of how we are saved...

If anyone adds to this simple message anything about 'works' then reject them!

I dont read many of the posts of some here, but I tell you right now, if they add to what I have said, and what you have heard Walter Martin say...REJECT them!

I dont care who they think they are....

[Libby]

So, we are in agreement on this issue, right?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

all I can say to this post is.....AMEN!

[Libby]

Ephesians 2:8 was one of the verses that kept haunting me, when I was LDS. That and Isaiah 44:6.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

So, we are in agreement on this issue, right?

Walter Martin always advised that you have to be careful to really define your terms right down to the smallest dot and tiddle, because if you are not careful you will find that a Moonie (a Korean CULT) will say the same things you say too, and quote you the same verses you quote too, so it will seem like you two are in agreement, but really they moonie has a different definition for the terms you use...


this happens all the time when I say "Jesus is God" and the CULTIST says "Thats true"....but because they believe in many gods, and that Jesus was just one of millions of gods that they believe in, the agreement that "Jesus is God" you have is a moot point.

[alanmolstad]

BUT...........

on the other hand......

[alanmolstad]

one of the issues that pops up is that Christians have a type of 'short-hand' that we like to use when dealing with the question of how we find salvation.....

Notice in that video at the at the 0:30 second point aht Walter martin is actually starting of his answer by CORRECTING the host......!!!

Now the Host is a good christian, but the the host also used shorthand when talking and making his question to Walter....

[alanmolstad]

The Host seems to say we Christians teach that we are saved by "faith alone"....

Walter martin corrects him....


What the Host says is not actually wrong in a certain 'context'....but it is wrong in a different context....

[alanmolstad]

when it is fine to say we are saved by "faith alone" is only when we are speaking in the context of being saved by 'works"

if you are dealing with the context of being saved by "works", then the shorthand answer that many Christians use to point out how wrong believing that works save us is to say that we are saved by "faith alone"

But in the wider context of teaching the fullness of christian teachings, you have to say that we are "Saved only by Grace alone, though faith and not by works"....

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The Host seems to say we Christians teach that we are saved by "faith alone"....

Walter martin corrects him....


What the Host says is not actually wrong in a certain 'context'....but it is wrong in a different context....

Yeah, it's not wrong to say we are saved by faith alone. Christians say that all the time.

Sola Fida
Sola Scriptura
Sola Gratia

[alanmolstad]

so in other words.....whenever you read or hear a christian say that we are saved by "faith alone' it mostly only speaking in the context of dealing with others who believe we are saved by "works" in some measure...

"faith alone" is the common response to someone who says we are saved by 'faith and works"

BUT....as Walter Martin points out at the 0:30 of the video...we are not actually saved by "Faith "...nor by "faith and works"

[alanmolstad]

Walter Martin is correct t when he tells us at the 0:32 point of the video that there is NO COMBINATION of "Faith and Works" that can save us....

[Libby]

I really got the feel for salvation by grace through faith, along time ago, when a dear friend of mine spent a lot of time with me, going through the Bible verses on this and really bringing it home for me. I wish I had his gift for teaching....although, really, it was coming from his center in Christ, I believe.

I remember being very impressed by the idea that God/Christ is doing the saving...and it has to be that way, because he is perfectly Holy, perfectly perfect.. and the only one who can do this work. Our "egoic" works are tainted with sin, because of our nature and just cannot be acceptable before God. That is why Christ had to die for us. The perfectly unblemished lamb...

Nothing at all we can do other than accept that perfect sacrifice.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

I really got the feel for salvation by grace through faith, along time ago, when a dear friend of mine spent a lot of time with me, going through the Bible verses on this and really bringing it home for me. I wish I had his gift for teaching....although, really, it was coming from his center in Christ, I believe.

I remember being very impressed by the idea that God/Christ is doing the saving...and it has to be that way, because he is perfectly Holy, perfectly perfect.. and the only one who can do this work. Our "egoic" works are tainted with sin, because of our nature and just cannot be acceptable before God. That is why Christ had to die for us. The perfectly unblemished lamb...

Nothing at all we can do other than accept that perfect sacrifice.

You said it pretty well here Libby.. Now if someone rejects the gift of salvation through faith in Jesus and goes about trying to established their salvation through there own efforts are such people saved or just deluding themselves in their own self righteous? IHS jim

[Libby]

I'm very willing to present what I believe and why. I will also give my opinion (for what it's worth) about "doctrine" that I believe is wrong. But, I'm not going to judge individuals, as to whether or not they are in Christ. That's not my ***.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I'm very willing to present what I believe and why. I will also give my opinion (for what it's worth) about "doctrine" that I believe is wrong. But, I'm not going to judge individuals, as to whether or not they are in Christ. That's not my ***.

we can judge only by looking at the works of people and our own...this is because only God can see the heart...only God sees the true faith of any of us.

[Libby]

Seems like a lot of people would rather look at a person's beliefs. Personally, I don't think that's a very good indicator. We all, undoubtedly, hold some wrong beliefs. Doesn't mean we cannot have a relationship with Jesus Christ.

[alanmolstad]

Faith in the wrong Jesus is pointless...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't think, either, Mormons nor Orthodox Christians believe that we can be saved by "works" alone, so that is not really the crux of the disagreement, between these two factions.

Here is the difference, as I see it.

Orthodox Christians believe that faith alone is the saving principle. Works spring from faith, but do not add to salvation.

Then the question remains for orthodox Christians--can one obtain salvation through dead faith?


James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I have often said--one must distinguish between orthodox Christianity and the true Christianity of the first century church, and found within the Biblical NT.