Faith vs Works for Salvation

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Then the question remains for orthodox Christians--can one obtain salvation through dead faith?


James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I have often said--one must distinguish between orthodox Christianity and the true Christianity of the first century church, and found within the Biblical NT.

While you are dead in your sins, God will reach out to you....
Each person is saved by Grace though faith....not by works...

thus you never have to worry that you have lacked in this or that work or project , as if you had to earn your salvation.

The good news is that there is NO heavy lifting to being saved, for the Lord has done all the work...

"But Alan, is there no work by the person needed to be saved?"....None!, save the work of having faith in the completed work of the cross of Christ.

Thus we are not saved by the fulfilling of works, but rather we are saved by Grace though faith, and out of our faith comes works...

In this way the works in my life are like the sound that comes forth from my car's motor.
The sound is not the important part, but it does tell you the condition of the motor.

No sound (no works in the life of the person) tell you that the motor is not running, (dead faith)

But you dont fix the car's motor by simply turning up the radio or by making a louder noise, rather when you get the motor running the correct sound will naturally come from this at the same time.

The running motor will "alone" drive the car, but the running motor is never alone, (there is always sound with it)

Just as we are saved by Grace though faith alone, ...but such faith is never alone.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Then the question remains for orthodox Christians--can one obtain salvation through dead faith?


James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I have often said--one must distinguish between orthodox Christianity and the true Christianity of the first century church, and found within the Biblical NT.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

While you are dead in your sins, God will reach out to you....
Each person is saved by Grace though faith....not by works...

Agreed--but how does that somehow cancel out the fact the scriptures have God giving His grace to those who obey Him? We are not saved by faith either--but how does that somehow annul the fact faith without works is dead? Alan--do you believe one is saved through dead faith?

thus you never have to worry that you have lacked in this or that work or project , as if you had to earn your salvation.

Is this an example of one earning salvation?


1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


IOW--are you attempting to convey the point--if God gives His grace to those who walk in His light--then that is earning grace?

The good news is that there is NO heavy lifting to being saved, for the Lord has done all the work...

"But Alan, is there no work by the person needed to be saved?"....None!, save the work of having faith in the completed work of the cross of Christ.

How do you explain the fact that all will be judged according to works--after this life--and that for life or ****ation?


John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Thus we are not saved by the fulfilling of works,

We are saved by God's grace--and if the scriptures are true--that saving grace goes to those who obey God:


Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

but rather we are saved by Grace though faith, and out of our faith comes works...

Is that dead faith you refer to here?


James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Agreed--but how does that somehow cancel out the fact the scriptures have God giving His grace to those who obey Him? We are not saved by faith either--but how does that somehow annul the fact faith without works is dead? Alan--do you believe one is saved through dead faith?

The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ and not by works. You are a false teacher and you will be held accountable for spreading your false teachings and leading people away from the true teachings of the Bible.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Then the question remains for orthodox Christians--can one obtain salvation through dead faith?


James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I have often said--one must distinguish between orthodox Christianity and the true Christianity of the first century church, and found within the Biblical NT.

I don't believe one can obtain salvation through "dead faith" (which would be no faith at all). But, IMHO, it's very clear that our works do not contribute towards salvation. We are "saved" the very moment we put our faith in him...which then allows him to work through us. The works are his and we should give him the credit.

"for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Philippians 2:13

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Then the question remains for orthodox Christians--can one obtain salvation through dead faith?


James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I have often said--one must distinguish between orthodox Christianity and the true Christianity of the first century church, and found within the Biblical NT.

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't believe one can obtain salvation through "dead faith" (which would be no faith at all). But, IMHO, it's very clear that our works do not contribute towards salvation.

I suppose you will have to forgive me, Libby--those two statements cannot exist together, IMO. IE--if you believe one cannot obtain salvation through "dead faith"--then what are you adding to that faith in order that it won't be dead faith? If it is the absence of works that renders it dead faith---then what does one believe that is necessary for faith to be a living faith?

If it is works--then one brings works into a contributing factor in salvation.

We are "saved" the very moment we put our faith in him...

By dead faith?

which then allows him to work through us.

So--first, one is save by dead faith--and then the works? How can you agree with the statement that dead faith cannot bring God's grace unto salvation--then construct a scenario that has one saved without works? Either faith without works is dead or it is not. If faith without works is dead--and you believe one cannot obtain salvation by dead faith--then you can't then proceed to construct a model where one is saved without works.

The works are his and we should give him the credit. "for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Philippians 2:13

How does that annul the fact that faith without works is dead? God does not judge Himself when He judges every man according to works:


Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)


27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ and not by works. You are a false teacher and you will be held accountable for spreading your false teachings and leading people away from the true teachings of the Bible.

Are these the ones which placed their faith in Christ?


Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Did God extend His grace of the forgiveness of sins to those who obeyed Him--and repented and were baptized? Does this scripture teach forgiveness of sins before or after the repentance and water baptism?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Did God extend His grace of the forgiveness of sins to those who obeyed Him--and repented and were baptized? Does this scripture teach forgiveness of sins before or after the repentance and water baptism?

Forgiveness of sins comes at time of conversion (repentance and faith) NOT as a result of our works. Works then proceed as a natural result of those who have faith and are regenerated.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I suppose you will have to forgive me, Libby--those two statements cannot exist together, IMO. IE--if you believe one cannot obtain salvation through "dead faith"--then what are you adding to that faith in order that it won't be dead faith? If it is the absence of works that renders it dead faith---then what does one believe that is necessary for faith to be a living faith?

If it is works--then one brings works into a contributing factor in salvation.

No forgiveness necessary, db...just a friendly conversation.

I know "faith without works is dead" is very big in LDS theology. But, when you really put all of this in the context of the rest of the Bible, especially the New Testament, there are many indicators that the "work" spoken of, in that verse and many others, is God's work ...that is, God working through us, not our own personal work.

By grace through faith (not of personal works) is the saving principle. You could say faith activates/allows God to work through us. That work is the tangible evidence of faith in Christ, which is our salvation.

Dead faith is really no faith and thus no tangible evidence of that faith. I think that's all that verse really means. What it most definitely doesn't mean, is that we have to do all kinds of special works in order to be saved. Just faith in Jesus Christ.

The first time I heard that, coming from a Mormon perspective, it stopped me dead in my tracks. It was so amazing to me that it was that simple....I remember saying, to the person who told me that....is that all? That seems way to simple...it can't be that easy! But, something deep inside of me told me it really was that simple...that easy. We only have to trust in him, repent and turn our life over to him. He will do the rest.

Romans 5:1 "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Libby

Dead faith is really no faith and thus no tangible evidence of that faith. I think that's all that verse really means. What it most definitely doesn't mean, is that we have to do all kinds of special works in order to be saved. Just faith in Jesus Christ.

Are you saying that repentance and water baptism is not special works?

Acts 2:38 (King James Version)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Or are you saying that repentance and water baptism is not necessary in order to be saved?

If all that is needed to be saved is faith--would dead faith do?

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

If your answer is no--then what works would you add to faith so it would not be dead faith? Are they "special works"?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Are you saying that repentance and water baptism is not special works?

A person is saved when he is converted (repentance and faith), works do not contribute for salvation. We are all commanded to be baptized and baptism is a work.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Are you saying that repentance and water baptism is not special works?

Acts 2:38 (King James Version)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Or are you saying that repentance and water baptism is not necessary in order to be saved?

If all that is needed to be saved is faith--would dead faith do?

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

If your answer is no--then what works would you add to faith so it would not be dead faith? Are they "special works"?

Trusting in Jesus Christ, putting our faith in him, having his actual Spirit dwelling within, will lead us to baptism and other good works. But, it is his work in us and through us, that makes our faith alive. He cannot work through us, unless we first put our faith/trust in him. His working through us is an indication of salvation, an indication of living faith (not dead)...but it is not what saves us. It is the faith in him that saves.

Galatians 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Are you saying that repentance and water baptism is not special works?

Acts 2:38 (King James Version)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Or are you saying that repentance and water baptism is not necessary in order to be saved?

If all that is needed to be saved is faith--would dead faith do?

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

If your answer is no--then what works would you add to faith so it would not be dead faith? Are they "special works"?

Originally Posted by Libby

Trusting in Jesus Christ, putting our faith in him, having his actual Spirit dwelling within, will lead us to baptism and other good works.

I agree--but that still leaves the elephant in the room. How does faith leading us to do good works somehow cancel out the scriptures that state God gives His salvational grace to those who obey Him?

But, it is his work in us and through us, that makes our faith alive. He cannot work through us, unless we first put our faith/trust in him.

I agree--but how does that negate the fact the scriptures have God's salvational grace of the remission of sins going to those who repent and are baptized?

His working through us is an indication of salvation, an indication of living faith (not dead)...but it is not what saves us. It is the faith in him that saves.

The LDS believe it is God's grace that saves us--not our faith.

Galatians 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

OK--Paul didn't believe that the Mosaic law could save one. And? How does that annul the fact the scriptures have God's salvational grace going to those who obey Him?

Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

How does faith leading us to do good works somehow cancel out the scriptures that state God gives His salvational grace to those who obey Him?

If a person is already saved when he places his trust in Christ, why do you believe that the person needs to be saved twice?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

OK--Paul didn't believe that the Mosaic law could save one.

But Paul clearly taught that IF a person obeyed the law perfectly he would be justied by the law. I am suprised that you are denying this fact since this is spoken about in one of the sections of Romans that you repeatedly quote. If seems that you have a case of severe selective comprehension.

[dberrie2000]

Billyray----Galatians 2:16---Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

dberrie----OK--Paul didn't believe that the Mosaic law could save one. And? How does that annul the fact the scriptures have God's salvational grace going to those who obey Him?

Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Originally Posted by Billyray

But Paul clearly taught that IF a person obeyed the law perfectly he would be justied by the law.

Paul taught there was no salvation under the Mosaic Law:


Hebrews 10:4---King James Version (KJV)


4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Paul taught there was no salvation under the Mosaic Law:


Hebrews 10:4---King James Version (KJV)


4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

This verse doesn't say anything about not being saved/justified by obedience to the law.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I agree--but that still leaves the elephant in the room. How does faith leading us to do good works somehow cancel out the scriptures that state God gives His salvational grace to those who obey Him?



I agree--but how does that negate the fact the scriptures have God's salvational grace of the remission of sins going to those who repent and are baptized?



The LDS believe it is God's grace that saves us--not our faith.



OK--Paul didn't believe that the Mosaic law could save one. And? How does that annul the fact the scriptures have God's salvational grace going to those who obey Him?

Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Sorry, I kind of dropped the ball, on this thread, db.

I want to say that I understand why there is so much controversy over this subject, as there are some verses that can "appear" very contradictory...especially one in James that says we are "justified by works". (James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone"). That one always confused me, when I was trying to digest the meaning of "faith alone".

But, I would say, in the larger picture, that "grace/faith alone" is really what Paul and others were teaching, because there is such a big emphasis on it...and many, many verses that say this outright...many more than those that mention works. James 2:24 is the only one I can think of that actually mentions works in the same sentence as "justification".

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Sorry, I kind of dropped the ball, on this thread, db.

".

Im more a weekend poster here....during the week Im likely on the road or just too darn tired...

[Libby]

I am retired, but seems like I still get very busy, sometimes.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Libby

But, I would say, in the larger picture, that "grace/faith alone" is really what Paul and others were teaching, because there is such a big emphasis on it..

Libby--I have seen many make this claim, when, in fact--there is only one mention of "faith alone" found in any translation the faith alone would use--and it is found here:


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)


24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Libby--one might rely on some arguments from the Biblical text--but that is not one of them. The claim of finding "faith alone" commonly mentioned or emphasized in the Bible will fail.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Libby--I have seen many make this claim, when, in fact--there is only one mention of "faith alone" found in any translation the faith alone would use--and it is found here:

You know with absolute certainty that the statement you just made is not true.

Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Libby--I have seen many make this claim, when, in fact--there is only one mention of "faith alone" found in any translation the faith alone would use--and it is found here:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)


24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Libby--one might rely on some arguments from the Biblical text--but that is not one of them. The claim of finding "faith alone" commonly mentioned or emphasized in the Bible will fail.

Originally Posted by Billyray

You know with absolute certainty that the statement you just made is not true.

Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law.

Since when have the faith alone started using the JST?

"there is only one mention of "faith alone" found in any translation the faith alone would use"

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

"there is only one mention of "faith alone" found in any translation the faith alone would use"

I have a JST at home, in fact it is about 3 feet from my hand as I speak AND I just used a verse in the JST. So your prior statement was absolutely false and you know it.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I have a JST at home, in fact it is about 3 feet from my hand as I speak AND I just used a verse in the JST. So your prior statement was absolutely false and you know it.

The only time a faith alone would use a JST is in a negative. No faith alone use the JST as their translation. The fact remains the same--the only time "faith alone" is found in any translation the faith alone recognize as legitimate is this one:


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)


24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Anathema to the faith alone theology.

[Libby]

DB, I think this explanation by Matt Slick is really pretty good, on this subject. (Matt is not usually someone I turn to for examples and explanations, but on this he has done a good ***). He even explains James 2:24.

James 2:24, not by faith alone

The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

There is no contradiction. All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us not to show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.

James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, a public confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that type of faith isn't any different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that has words followed by actions. Works follow true faith and demonstrate that faith to our fellow man, but not to God. James writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.

In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20). But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.