Faith vs Works for Salvation

[Libby]

If we see that the scriptures exclude works in any form as a means of our salvation, then logically, we are saved by faith alone. Let's take a look at what the Bible says about faith and works. Then, afterwards, we will tackle James' statement about "faith alone".

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Gal. 3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

Again, works/Law is contrasted with faith repeatedly and we are told that we are not justified by works in any way. Therefore, we are made right with God by faith, not by faith and our works; hence, faith alone.

http://carm.org/are-we-saved-faith-a...need-works-too

[RealFakeHair]

[QUOTE=Libby;144603][
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
OH shoot! So that does it, dberrie aint goin to be judged by the Law ie works, now what?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Libby

DB, I think this explanation by Matt Slick is really pretty good, on this subject. (Matt is not usually someone I turn to for examples and explanations, but on this he has done a good ***). He even explains James 2:24.

James 2:24, not by faith alone

The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

There is no contradiction. All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us not to show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.

James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, a public confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that type of faith isn't any different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that has words followed by actions. Works follow true faith and demonstrate that faith to our fellow man, but not to God. James writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.

In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20). But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.

Libby--I see a panacea of contradictions. Could you explain how a dead faith, as Matt describes,---- a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, --can save one? That is his claim--right?

"This faith alone saves us."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Libby--I see a panacea of contradictions. Could you explain how a dead faith, as Matt describes,---- a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, --can save one? That is his claim--right?

"This faith alone saves us."

Dead faith = no faith. So it is easy to see that a person who doesn't have faith will not be saved.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Libby--I see a panacea of contradictions. Could you explain how a dead faith, as Matt describes,---- a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, --can save one? That is his claim--right?

"This faith alone saves us."

He is saying that a "dead faith" does not save. Dead faith is "no faith". No contradictions, that I can see...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Libby

He is saying that a "dead faith" does not save.

You did read his opening sentence?

"The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. "

Dead faith is "no faith". No contradictions, that I can see...

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Libby--dead faith is faith without works. You do realize that what Matt did in his opening sentence---he separated faith from any works--and pronounced we are saved by this "faith alone"--faith apart from our works.


James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)


24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

You did read his opening sentence?

"The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. "

Those who come to Christ and place their trust in Him to save them are justified/saved. Works naturally follow those who are saved, but the works do not contribute for salvation rather they are simple the natural result of those who are saved. The thief on the cross is a perfect example of a person who is saved and the basis of his salvation was faith and not works. Had the thief lived works would have naturally flowed because he was saved.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

You did read his opening sentence?

"The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. "




James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Libby--dead faith is faith without works. You do realize that what Matt did in his opening sentence---he separated faith from any works--and pronounced we are saved by this "faith alone"--faith apart from our works.


James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)


24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

DB, yes, and he gave numerous verses that say exactly that...we are saved by grace through faith, not by works.

You are hanging much too much on this one verse in James. Not saying to throw it out, but just to put it in context with the rest of the teachings.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostYou did read his opening sentence?

"The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. "




James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Libby--dead faith is faith without works. You do realize that what Matt did in his opening sentence---he separated faith from any works--and pronounced we are saved by this "faith alone"--faith apart from our works.


James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)


24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Originally Posted by Libby

DB, yes, and he gave numerous verses that say exactly that...we are saved by grace through faith, not by works.

You are hanging much too much on this one verse in James. Not saying to throw it out, but just to put it in context with the rest of the teachings.

Libby--it's not the verses in James that should bother one--it's the statement of Matt Slick---

"James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, "

You realize that is the very faith Matt is saying that saves us?

"The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. "

Matt's "faith alone"--and a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, " is one and the same.

[James Banta]

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;144816]

You did read the chapter or are you pulling these p***age out of context not understanding what James is really teaching?

I agree that
"The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. "
This faith without any works of righteousness has saving power. But if you are going to use James 2 to try and prove that salvation is by works and not by faith then you have to BELIEVE ALL OF James 2.. But you want to cast James 2 10 out because it doesn't match up with your perversions of the Gospel of Christ. You either obey the whole law or admit that you have no obedience to any of the Law of God..

Now let's look at James 2 in the context of the whole of the New Testament.. Jesus taught clearly that though believing in Him a person receives everlasting life (John 3:16).. That believers in Him though they are dead yet shall they live, and those who lives and believe in Him will never die (John 11:25-26). Then there is the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul teaching us that it is by His grace that salvation is made available to us and not by good works (Eph 2:8-9). He teaches us that salvation is not by both faith and works but one or the other (Romans 11:6)..

Going back again to James 2, to see it is conforms to these other p***ages and look at James 2:18 and see that good works manifest saving faith to those of us that can't see the hearts of other people.. Then we look at the works James lists as the works a believe should be exhibiting. In verses 1-9 we are taught NOT TO HOLD OR REFUSE TO HOLD RESPECT FOR OTHER BECAUSE OF THEIR WEALTH OR LACK THEREOF. Look at the leadership of the LDS church and tell me that it holds to that commandment.. All the men that call themselves Elder and accept respect from the membership are RICH as compared to the membership as a whole..

In verses 10-12 we are again commanded to live the perfect life and yet the realization is there that sin will keep is is a fallen state before a Holy God, and that in sinning we are all guilty before God.. In verses 13-26 teaches us that sitting on our backsides and doing nothing shows that we have no faith at all. For a faith that is not alive is not faith at all. It is clearly nothing but mistrust, and doubt.. But look at verse 19 especially.. This tells us that we can't even say we have faith if we don't have faith in God at least as much as the devils do.. We are taught here that even they know that God is one, and they tremble.. But what does the prophet of mormonism teach? The prophet that said he spoke to God, the prophet that identified all other churches as wrong and all their teachers as corrupt. He said that there are three Gods!!!! (lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it! History of the Church Vol. 6, p. 473).. This show without the use of any "antimormonism" references that Smith didn't even teach as much as the devils know.. That God is ONE.. without that one main support of faith what good is faith, what good are works.. It is all for naught, It is the wide road to destruction. It's only reward is DEATH and the Lake of Fire.. This is why I am here, not to lead you out of mormonism. It is not my work to tell you where to go to church.. That doesn't matter.. What I am here for is to lead you away from false gods that has been presented to you in a way that you see them as true gods, and through God's word show you the one and only True and living God.. Go to any church you want to attend. It makes no difference. I will allow the Holy Spirit to direct you to where He can best use you. Just get these false teaching out of your heart and mind that God became a God. That He isn't unique, that there are others like Him.. That the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit aren't the one and only being of God. That through Faith plus nothing we can't receive the best of God's salvation. That He didn't do it all and there is more we need than to accept His grace through a Faith that He provides (Mark 9:24)..

So be a mormon if you must, just remember to become a child of God though Faith in Jesus and know that you HAVE eternal life because of His works and not your own. Then step out and show that living faith by not showing preference for the rich over the poor, extending real tangible help to the naked, and the hungry, always remembering to love our neighbors as ourselves, believing that God is one. Then I will see your works and know that you are His. Until that day you reside with those that clung to Moses above the Law of Liberty which is to BELIEVE and to LOVE and are children of the devil (JOHN 8:440 remember they taught strict obedience just like you have been doing. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

You did read his opening sentence?

"The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. "

James Banta----If you are going to use James 2 to try and prove that salvation is by works and not by faith then you have to BELIEVE ALL OF James 2..

I don't believe salvation is either by faith or by works. I believe it is by God's grace--which the scriptures show goes to those who obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Libby]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I don't believe salvation is either by faith or by works. I believe it is by God's grace--which the scriptures show goes to those who obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

I agree with you about being saved by grace.....through faith.

All of those who "obey him" have faith or they wouldn't obey him. So, it is "by grace through faith" that obedience comes. Obedience is the "fruit"...but the "work" has nothing to do with salvation. It is the fruits of salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Libby

I agree with you about being saved by grace.....through faith.

All of those who "obey him" have faith or they wouldn't obey him. So, it is "by grace through faith" that obedience comes.

It states that we are saved by grace through faith--not that is where obedience comes from. And we are not saved by faith either. We are saved by GRACE through faith.

The question is--is that faith alone, or dead faith that this grace flows through--or faith that is combined with works?

Libby--please identify when this grace flows through faith--before the works--or after works are combined with faith.

If it is before--then we are saved through dead faith:

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


If it is after--then we are saved by faith other than dead faith.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It states that we are saved by grace through faith--not that is where obedience comes from. And we are not saved by faith either. We are saved by GRACE through faith.

The question is--is that faith alone, or dead faith that this grace flows through--or faith that is combined with works?

Libby--please identify when this grace flows through faith--before the works--or after works are combined with faith.

If it is before--then we are saved through dead faith:

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


If it is after--then we are saved by faith other than dead faith.

You falsely claimed on CARM that Christians don't use the Bible when discussing with Mormons. You know that is an absolutely false claim. So I guess what you want is for us to respond to you in the same way that you post to us. I will give you what you want then.

Romans 4:5 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---It states that we are saved by grace through faith--not that is where obedience comes from. And we are not saved by faith either. We are saved by GRACE through faith.

The question is--is that faith alone, or dead faith that this grace flows through--or faith that is combined with works?

Libby--please identify when this grace flows through faith--before the works--or after works are combined with faith.

If it is before--then we are saved through dead faith:

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


If it is after--then we are saved by faith other than dead faith.

Originally Posted by Billyray

You falsely claimed on CARM that Christians don't use the Bible when discussing with Mormons. You know that is an absolutely false claim.

I stated they do not use the Bible very often--as they don't here. Probably less than 50%--and maybe less than 30%--of the posts here by non-LDS contain Biblical quotes. Possibly even less on the CARM forum.

So I guess what you want is for us to respond to you in the same way that you post to us. I will give you what you want then.

Romans 4:5 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

That's the same one you always post to. I will tell you what--I'm going to tally up this and find the truth--if I am wrong--I will post it.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I stated they do not use the Bible very often--as they don't here. Probably less than 50%--and maybe less than 30%--of the posts here by non-LDS contain Biblical quotes. Possibly even less on the CARM forum.

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

[Libby]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It states that we are saved by grace through faith--not that is where obedience comes from. And we are not saved by faith either. We are saved by GRACE through faith.

The question is--is that faith alone, or dead faith that this grace flows through--or faith that is combined with works?

Libby--please identify when this grace flows through faith--before the works--or after works are combined with faith.

If it is before--then we are saved through dead faith:

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


If it is after--then we are saved by faith other than dead faith.

Living faith is simply a real trust in Jesus Christ...not just a profession of it, but real/true faith that is ready and willing to obey.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That's the same one you always post to. I will tell you what--I'm going to tally up this and find the truth--if I am wrong--I will post it.

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

[Libby]

I didn't realize this subject was being discussed on several threads here already.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---It states that we are saved by grace through faith--not that is where obedience comes from. And we are not saved by faith either. We are saved by GRACE through faith.

The question is--is that faith alone, or dead faith that this grace flows through--or faith that is combined with works?

Libby--please identify when this grace flows through faith--before the works--or after works are combined with faith.

If it is before--then we are saved through dead faith:

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


If it is after--then we are saved by faith other than dead faith.

Originally Posted by Libby

Living faith is simply a real trust in Jesus Christ...not just a profession of it, but real/true faith that is ready and willing to obey.

The question being--can we be saved through dead faith?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The question being--can we be saved through dead faith?

No, of course, not. That's the whole point.

You asked: "Libby--please identify when this grace flows through faith--before the works--or after works are combined with faith."

Before, just as soon as we sincerely put our faith in Jesus Christ and show "willingness" to obey.

You can have faith that is open to "works", but hasn't yet had to opportunity to do anything.

Dead faith is just a profession of faith without that willingness to actually follow and obey.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The question being--can we be saved through dead faith?

John 3

16*For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

18*He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The question being--can we be saved through dead faith?

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I stated they do not use the Bible very often--as they don't here. Probably less than 50%--and maybe less than 30%--of the posts here by non-LDS contain Biblical quotes. Possibly even less on the CARM forum.

Here is your exact quotation with the reference so it complies with the rules of this board as noted "All quotations must include the complete citation."

[CARM "Mormon Double Standards" post #2--Dberrie2000]

Because what is contained in the Bible is also found in the LDS church. Do you have any Biblical material that you feel violates that? To the contrary--the faith alone have very little in common with the Bible.

Theo--have you ever noticed that most of the posters here that are anti-LDS use the Bible very little? Check my posts--count the Biblical quotes--and then check the responses I receive, and count their Biblical quotes--yours included. This forum, especially those of the anti-LDS ilk--use the Bible very sparingly. Why? Could you explain that to us?

Theo--I use the Bible to back my claims--and anyone who is interested to investigate that claim will find it true. You do not--not very often. You and those of this form, like to dig their material from the dirt pits--or make accusations that are nothing but straw man tactics, as yours is here.

Theo--where are your Biblical scriptures?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I don't believe salvation is either by faith or by works. I believe it is by God's grace--which the scriptures show goes to those who obey Him:

***us 3
4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,