Defining "works-based salvation" and the Blood of Christ

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Sure it doesn't:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If receiving the Blood of Christ unto the forgiveness of sins is conditional upon walking in the light--then works are a consideration in eternal life.

Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---No DB the Bible doesn't teach a works based salvation.

dberrie----The Bible teaches a grace based salvation--and as the scriptures show--that grace goes to those who obey Him--and walk in His light.

Billyray---As I said before IF the Bible taught a works based salvation I would have no issue believing in this, but it doesn't.

First--let's settle a point in your statement---"works based salvation". Do you consider God giving His salvation grace of His Blood to those who walk in the light--a "works-based salvation"?

BTW the verse that you quoted is speaking about sanctification not salvation.

Sorry, Billyray--the LDS consider God's Blood salvational grace.

Could anyone comment on whether this scripture is works-based? If the Blood of Christ is a salvational grace?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

First--let's settle a point in your statement---"works based salvation". Do you consider God giving His salvation grace of His Blood to those who walk in the light--a "works-based salvation"?

Not at all because this verse is speaking about believers who are already saved--perhaps you missed the "we" in the verse. This verse is speaking about ongoing sanctification as I said before, a person is not saved then unsaved every time he sins. That is another one of your nutty ideas.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---First--let's settle a point in your statement---"works based salvation". Do you consider God giving His salvation grace of His Blood to those who walk in the light--a "works-based salvation"?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Not at all

Then why is that your pat answer when I post scriptures that have God giving His grace to those who obey Him? IE---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Sure it doesn't:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If receiving the Blood of Christ unto the forgiveness of sins is conditional upon walking in the light--then works are a consideration in eternal life.

Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---No DB the Bible doesn't teach a works based salvation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Then why is that your pat answer when I post scriptures that have God giving His grace to those who obey Him?

God gives his grace all the time to both believers and unbelievers. This verse is not speaking about salvation and you seemed to agree with this fact in the other thread.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Can you tell me who are the "we" and the "us" are in this verse?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---First--let's settle a point in your statement---"works based salvation". Do you consider God giving His salvation grace of His Blood to those who walk in the light--a "works-based salvation"?

Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Not at all

dberrie---Then why is that your pat answer when I post scriptures that have God giving His grace to those who obey Him? IE---

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If receiving the Blood of Christ unto the forgiveness of sins is conditional upon walking in the light--then works are a consideration in eternal life.

Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---No DB the Bible doesn't teach a works based salvation.

Originally Posted by Billyray

God gives his grace all the time to both believers and unbelievers.

You believe that God gives His Blood unto the forgiveness of sins to those who are unbelievers?

This verse is not speaking about salvation and you seemed to agree with this fact in the other thread.

Cite, please. As I have already stated--the LDS believe the Blood of Christ unto the forgiveness of sins is salvational.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

You believe that God gives His Blood unto the forgiveness of sins to those who are unbelievers?

Jesus died for his sheep.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Cite, please. As I have already stated--the LDS believe the Blood of Christ unto the forgiveness of sins is salvational.

Perhaps you can go back and read your own posts in the other thread and to catch up to speed. Didn't you agree with me that you don't believe that a person is saved then the next minute he commits a sin then is unsaved, then repents and is saved followed shortly thereafter by another sin and becomes unsaved--saved--unsaved--saved--unsaved--saved--ect. through his entire life? So if this verse is speaking about salvation like you think that iris then your position is not consistent. This verse is speaking to believers who are saved, but this verse is speaking about ongoing sanctification--not salvation.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jesus died for his sheep.

So you are one of those limited atonement folks who believe that there are billions of people who Jesus refused to, or failed to, die for?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jesus died for his sheep.

Let's get a more accurate statement on that one--you believe that Jesus died ONLY for His sheep.

1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)



2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Perhaps you can go back and read your own posts in the other thread and to catch up to speed. Didn't you agree with me that you don't believe that a person is saved then the next minute he commits a sin then is unsaved, then repents and is saved followed shortly thereafter by another sin and becomes unsaved--saved--unsaved--saved--unsaved--saved--ect. through his entire life? So if this verse is speaking about salvation like you think that iris then your position is not consistent. This verse is speaking to believers who are saved, but this verse is speaking about ongoing sanctification--not salvation.

Billyray--I have no idea what your point here is. The LDS believe the Blood of Christ is salvational in the verse I gave you:


1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


That verse has the condition of walking in the light to receiving the Blood of Christ. His grace for our obedience to Christ.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray--I have no idea what your point here is. The LDS believe the Blood of Christ is salvational in the verse I gave you:


1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


That verse has the condition of walking in the light to receiving the Blood of Christ. His grace for our obedience to Christ.

But it's apparent that some modern Calvinistic Evangelicals have a big problem with these "If...then" Bible verses. Because they imply that some blessings only come to people if they do something first. This idea destroys the Calvinistic myth that God does everything first, and we have no control of our fate because the individual DESTINY of each of us was decreed and pre- DESTINED by God, for unknown reasons, before He even created the human race. The idea that God reacts to choices we make hurts the myth of the absolute sovereignty and omnipotence of God. Therefore, it became necessary to brand such freedom a heresy.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So you are one of those limited atonement folks who believe that there are billions of people who Jesus refused to, or failed to, die for?

Absolutely. Tell me Jeff did Christ pay for ALL sins for EVERY single person?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Let's get a more accurate statement on that one--you believe that Jesus died ONLY for His sheep.

You never did answer my question as to why anyone would go to Hell if Jesus paid for EVERY sin for Every person. Do you think that you are ever going to get around to it or are you too busy?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray--I have no idea what your point here is. The LDS believe the Blood of Christ is salvational in the verse I gave you:

I don't know how much more plain I can be DB. This verse is not speaking about salvation but rather about sanctification.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Absolutely.

So you believe that Jesus refused or failed to atone for most people's sins. Wow. A finite atonement is what you believe in. You have "another gospel" I guess, with "another jesus" who is unable to save most of the human race, I guess. After all, how can your Jesus save even a majority of the human race if He limited His atonement to just a few chosen "teacher's pets" ???

Tell me Jeff did Christ pay for ALL sins for EVERY single person?

What does the Bible say? Does it teach a limited Messiah who bailed on most of the human race? How can there be any hope for most people, if Jesus didn't even die for them? Why should they love or respect Him when He didn't love them enough to die for them?

That whole scenario you believe in regarding this issue seems really unbiblical to me, and unChristian, even. Sorry.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So you believe that Jesus refused or failed to atone for most people's sins.

John 10:15*just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Absolutely. Jesus died for His sheep (the elect).

Now perhaps you can answer my question. Do you believe that Jesus paid for every sin for every person?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

What does the Bible say?

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Matthew 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

John 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

John 17: 6*“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7*Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8*For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9*I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

First--let's settle a point in your statement---"works based salvation". Do you consider God giving His salvation grace of His Blood to those who walk in the light--a "works-based salvation"?



Sorry, Billyray--the LDS consider God's Blood salvational grace.

Could anyone comment on whether this scripture is works-based? If the Blood of Christ is a salvational grace?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

It is my understanding we don’t have any claim to be of any part of any scriptures dealing with any benefits granted till first we accept what is freely given. So, to answer the above question dealing with the above verse is no.

Curious, Has anyone touched on the difference between entrance into and maintenance of salvation?

I’m new here so I didn’t want to be unsocial with such a lively room, carry on.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----First--let's settle a point in your statement---"works based salvation". Do you consider God giving His salvation grace of His Blood to those who walk in the light--a "works-based salvation"?

Sorry, Billyray--the LDS consider God's Blood salvational grace.

Could anyone comment on whether this scripture is works-based? If the Blood of Christ is a salvational grace?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Originally Posted by MichaellS

It is my understanding we don’t have any claim to be of any part of any scriptures dealing with any benefits granted till first we accept what is freely given.

The scriptures have the free gift as the Atonement of Jesus Christ for the sins of the whole world--which was a free gift to all men. All men were Redeemed from the consequences of the Fall--and given the opportunity of eternal life.


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

So, to answer the above question dealing with the above verse is no.

Thanks for the direct answer. If that is true--then God gives His salvational grace to those who walk in His light, without the accusation of a works-based salvation. The faith alone theology(sola fide) is faith that is alone for salvation. Any scripture that has God giving His salvational grace for obedience to Him is considered a false doctrine--yet, the Biblical NT testifies to just that--God giving His grace unto life to those who obey Him.

Curious, Has anyone touched on the difference between entrance into and maintenance of salvation?

I’m new here so I didn’t want to be unsocial with such a lively room, carry on.

Good subject--fire away. The faith alone don't usually use such language as "maintenance of salvation". What do you claim as your church?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Billyray--I have no idea what your point here is. The LDS believe the Blood of Christ is salvational in the verse I gave you:


1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


That verse has the condition of walking in the light to receiving the Blood of Christ. His grace for our obedience to Christ.

Originally Posted by Billyray

I don't know how much more plain I can be DB. This verse is not speaking about salvation but rather about sanctification.

And I don't know how to be any more plain than state that the LDS believe the Blood of Christ is salvational.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post----Jesus died for his sheep.

dberrie----Let's get a more accurate statement on that one--you believe that Jesus died ONLY for His sheep.

1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)


2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Originally Posted by Billyray

You never did answer my question as to why anyone would go to Hell if Jesus paid for EVERY sin for Every person. Do you think that you are ever going to get around to it or are you too busy?

Billyray--I have answered that question several times now--you just have not accepted my answer. The reason that anyone would be denied eternal life is because they refused to obey the terms of the Redeemer of all mankind--and obey and follow Him. The One who died for the sins of the whole world--and bought us with a price--all men.


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


The reason that anyone would be denied eternal life is because they refused to obey the terms of the Redeemer of all mankind--and obey and follow Him....the One who died for the sins of the whole world--and bought us with a price--all men.

Makes sense to me. If Jesus didn't pay the price for the sins of ALL of us sinners, then it would mean that He didn't love all of us--it would mean that He only loves some of us. That doesn't seem right. I think Jesus loves all of us, and if He loves all of us, then He died for all of us.

We are all His sheep. Some of us might be lost sheep, but that doesn't mean that He doesn't love all of us.

Billy's "small" atonement theory essentially means that Jesus hates most of the human race. I don't see the Bible teaching such a "gospel." The GOOD news I see in the Bible is that God so loved ALL of us that He sent His only begotten Son to die for ALL of us, so that any of us who would follow Him could inherit eternal life. Now THAT is good news--the news that eternal life is available to ALL of us. The only thing that will keep us from being saved is OUR choices, not Jesus' so-called choice to not die for most of us. Billy's news is BAD news for the vast majority of the human race. It's a gospel of hopelessness, IMO.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

And I don't know how to be any more plain that state that the LDS believe the Blood of Christ is salvational.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

So then you must have changed your mind. Since you believe that this verse is speaking about salvation you must believe that you are saved--then unsaved--then saved--then unsaved every time you sin. Is that what you believe this verse is saying?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The reason that anyone would be denied eternal life is because they refused to obey the terms of the Redeemer of all mankind--and obey and follow Him. The One who died for the sins of the whole world--and bought us with a price--all men.

It is a sin to refuse to obey Christ. Do you believe that Christ paid for some sins but not all sins?