John 1:1 real problems in there for Trinitarians

[Tom Boots]

Well it depends on what you mean by scholar, I know Greek, have studied Koine Greek of the Bible and know what I speak of when I do.
Maybe more a student, but know that "para ton theon" is not in John 1:1 is.
Now do you answer thread posts or just post meaningless gibberish.
I see you still have not tried.
Just wondering if you are going to get into a conversation and discuss the Trinity errors and Roman Catholic nonsense that, that religion invented, from it's originator and father of such, TERTULLIAN.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

Well it depends on what you mean by scholar, I know Greek, have studied Koine Greek of the Bible and know what I speak of when I do.
Maybe more a student, but know that "para ton theon" is not in John 1:1 is.
Now do you answer thread posts or just post meaningless gibberish.
I see you still have not tried.
Just wondering if you are going to get into a conversation and discuss the Trinity errors and Roman Catholic nonsense that, that religion invented, from it's originator and father of such, TERTULLIAN.

As the man said, "It's all Greek to me." Man I am glad I like playing golf, if I could only be in three golf course at the same time, Now that is a true Trinity, but a foursome is better.
Well anyways, I don't know what John 1;1 has to do with the Trinity, but heck keep studing the Greek language....

[Tom Boots]

I am playing in a Golf outing today, 4 man scramble, I came in third 5 years ago in this outing and two years ago one closest to the pin at 170 yds (2 feet away).
Last 5 years I keep playing better and better (shoot in mid 80's), broke 80 last year for first time, had two 80's as well on even harder courses and playing more, you can only improve by playing and practicing (which I hate really just hitting ***** at range).
Getting Senior rates and hitting off Senior tees now, hit them straight and last year had 2 fist place finishes and a 3rd and one a bunch of stuff in these outings.

NOW I do study Greek and the Bible in English my language and reject a trinity, for the Bible says nary a thing about it or even hints.

Jesus is all, He is LORD GOD ALMIGHTY.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

I am playing in a Golf outing today, 4 man scramble, I came in third 5 years ago in this outing and two years ago one closest to the pin at 170 yds (2 feet away).
Last 5 years I keep playing better and better (shoot in mid 80's), broke 80 last year for first time, had two 80's as well on even harder courses and playing more, you can only improve by playing and practicing (which I hate really just hitting ***** at range).
Getting Senior rates and hitting off Senior tees now, hit them straight and last year had 2 fist place finishes and a 3rd and one a bunch of stuff in these outings.

NOW I do study Greek and the Bible in English my language and reject a trinity, for the Bible says nary a thing about it or even hints.

Jesus is all, He is LORD GOD ALMIGHTY.

See we have something in common, I hope you make a hole in one and win the car, if not the sleeve of golf ***** aint bad.

[cheachea]

Tom Boots read this verse 1John 5:7 -


For there are "Three" that bear witness in heaven: "the Father?, "the Word", and "the Holy Spirit"; and These Three Are "ONE".

[Tom Boots]

You apparently don't know that 1 JN 5:17 IS CONSIDERED THEE MOST SPURIOUS TEXT IN ANY BIBLE!
WHY?
Do you know why?
I do!
It is because that verse is not written in any Greek text till the 13th century!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is not found, save in the Codex Montforti.
I bet you didn't know that Erasmus, the author of the TEXTUS RECEPTUS in his first two editions of his writing did not have it in the text!
He was forced by the CATHOLIC mother religion to insert it, OR ELSE.
He told them they had to come up with it in Greek, they obliged and found one in DUBLIN IRELAND of all places, WELL THAT IS MIGHTY STRANGE A DOCUMENT FROM THE 1200'S {aka 13th century} in IRELAND and it's arena of Catholic stronghold found one after he asked for one and not from any earlier century or somewhere even remotely close to Israel, neighboring countries, Italy, Greece, Middle East.
AND TO BE CENTURIES REMOVED AND NO OTHER MSS TO SUPPORT IT.
Why most modern versions reject that verse as Authentic and include it or put it in parentheses.

Your people had to mislead and write it in to prop up a evil triad of three gods masquerading as One True God.

The verse is rejected, it is false and you were duped by a horrific system of hate and THREE gods.

See Adam Clarke's commentary on the verse, it has not eve been refuted and that is from the early 19th century.

[Tom Boots]

Hey realfakehair, My team shot 70 two under and I hit a 40 foot putt to take longest putt in the outing and got a 15 ball pack of Pinnacle Gold Yellow optic *****, and did so as the leadoff first putting guy and not getting a read from others.
6433 yds par 72 course.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

Hey realfakehair, My team shot 70 two under and I hit a 40 foot putt to take longest putt in the outing and got a 15 ball pack of Pinnacle Gold Yellow optic *****, and did so as the leadoff first putting guy and not getting a read from others.
6433 yds par 72 course.

Oh, shoot, I missed a 18 inc putt yesterday, that about sums up my day!
Hope you win a car next time.

[Tom Boots]

Shot my best round Friday for the year a 82 and then followed up with the worse nine holes a 49 and worse round at 95 on a different course the next day.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

I am playing in a Golf outing today, 4 man scramble, I came in third 5 years ago in this outing and two years ago one closest to the pin at 170 yds (2 feet away).
Last 5 years I keep playing better and better (shoot in mid 80's), broke 80 last year for first time, had two 80's as well on even harder courses and playing more, you can only improve by playing and practicing (which I hate really just hitting ***** at range).
Getting Senior rates and hitting off Senior tees now, hit them straight and last year had 2 fist place finishes and a 3rd and one a bunch of stuff in these outings.

NOW I do study Greek and the Bible in English my language and reject a trinity, for the Bible says nary a thing about it or even hints.

Jesus is all, He is LORD GOD ALMIGHTY.

I play in the mid 70's, any hotter and I don't go out.

[Tom Boots]

I was going to ask you what you got on the back nine when you played 18, but that was a good one,
Yesterday it was 46 with wind chill at 40.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

Well it depends on what you mean by scholar, I know Greek, have studied Koine Greek of the Bible and know what I speak of when I do.
Maybe more a student, but know that "para ton theon" is not in John 1:1 is.
Now do you answer thread posts or just post meaningless gibberish.
I see you still have not tried.
Just wondering if you are going to get into a conversation and discuss the Trinity errors and Roman Catholic nonsense that, that religion invented, from it's originator and father of such, TERTULLIAN.

Tom thanks for your reply. Since you seem to be a mid level belt in Greek and I have not even bought a Ghi I need to defer to others in regards to you ***ertion. Can you explain why this guy says otherwise? http://baptistgadfly.blogspot.com/20...ton-theon.html Thanks.

[Tom Boots]

I notice in reading that he does not deal with the other three places that
"pros ton theon" is used, I find that interesting, why avoid when anyone reading the Greek and comparing the usage in HEB. 2:17, 5:1 AND ROM. 15:17 finds
"in things pertaing to God".
Now the fact is this though, that it is the extrabiblical language of Trinitarians that amazes me and hoodwinks unsuspecting Trinitarians into believing that all these are biblical, that it says what Trinity scholars and Ministers say.
i.e. Trinity, no place is it found, yet a whole doctrine is built upon it, the Hebrew man never taught it.
The earliest of known Christians never espoused such, if you study and look for who could be cl***ified Trinitarian holding a Trinity view of God, one must reject that any of the Jews held such O.T. or N.T. and that any 1st century Christians held such.
So MACG tell me who by name is of your camp in the second century, tell me who you count as your Ministers and holding your faith, but make sure you study, before you pop out the names of those your camp runs to and then must run away from when we see what they really held.
JUSTIN MARTYR, ORIGEN, TERTULLIAN.
I realize by mid 3rd century your side had taken over and suppressed Monarchians, but we held the Bishopric of Rome and Smyrna and Antioch and other places well before the first Known Trinitarian was known {Tertullian}.

When it comes to debating the ENGLISH scriptures translated by those who put it in our language, Oneness fair very well and of those I have attended, gotten tapes audio and video or read any books or transcripts, Oneness win hands down.

[cheachea]

Tom Boots you have already lost yet you refuse to listen. I showed you where you are wrong using scripture but you still refuse to listen. Ask The Holy Spirit to reveal all Truth to You and He Will.

In the end you are just like all the other Heretical Non-TRINITARIAN Cults out there. You fit in with the Mormons, JW's, Adoptionism, Arianism, and Docetism. You sound like you fall in to the Sabellianism Heresy.

At the End of the day you are just Wrong . You believe Heresies that have already been rejected for almost 2,000 years.

[Tom Boots]

You may want to wake upand smell the Roses, you didn't refute me, Irefuted your posts and Trinitarians.
Sabellius was a saint of God and that God is Jesus.
There is no Trinity because your church used force to come in power doesn't mean we are heretics, just that we are are not you folks and don't follow three god heresy.
Irefuted your1 Jn 5:7 post and Gen. 1:26, you cannot even answer my posts as see in all the posts above.

[cheachea]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

You may want to wake upand smell the Roses, you didn't refute me, Irefuted your posts and Trinitarians.
.

Nope Wrong Again.

[Tom Boots]

No regarding the one true God and the Trinity three gods I am not wrong.
I came out of that and was glad I did, for my studies have shown me a false antichrist church which has the blood of saints on it's hands and what it wants (freedom to worship as one sees fits) it didn't allow others to participate.
Torture, hate, thievery, murder, all seen for many a century and hidden behind the facade of being a church.

You have struck out with Gen. 1:26, 1 Jn 5:7, why don't you try the third strike whiffing for a good strike out.
Or sit there and get caught looking as I continue to post, JESUS is The Lord God Almighty and not a weak second deity or three.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

I notice in reading that he does not deal with the other three places that
"pros ton theon" is used, I find that interesting, why avoid when anyone reading the Greek and comparing the usage in HEB. 2:17, 5:1 AND ROM. 15:17 finds
"in things pertaing to God".

Not sure about why he did not go on about the other three. Since he does not say it is speculation to say he avoided them. Did you notice the he referenced Romans 5:1? Here is a whole list of the use of pros.. Most often is it used as 'with' and pertaining to only six times(KJV) and only in the Hebrews verses you mention not the Romans p***age. What rule are you using to derive pertaining to God in Jn1

[Tom Boots]

He did deal with the three verses that speak of pros ton theon, in no other place is pros ton theon translated WITH as Jn.1:1.
I believe they use the smoke and mirrors in showing it in other places to hide there not showing how it was used in modifying Theos.

I believe it is attempt to have the multiple god view.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

He did deal with the three verses that speak of pros ton theon, in no other place is pros ton theon translated WITH as Jn.1:1.
I believe they use the smoke and mirrors in showing it in other places to hide there not showing how it was used in modifying Theos.

I believe it is attempt to have the multiple god view.

Did you re-read the blog again? First you said he did not deal with it then you said he did. I read it again and saw this this time "2 Corinthians 5:8 "pros ton kurion" (“with the Lord”)".

[Tom Boots]

Theos was not modified in any other p***age as Jn 1:1, go retread it.
he didn't want to deal with what exposed his position, by not posting the three other p***ages as I mentioned, that tells me he wanted to intentionally misinform, or he really didn't know Greek as much as he Put on.

Pros ton Theon = in things pertaining to God .
Heb 2:17,5:1, and yes Rom. 5:17.
John 1:1 should have been the same.

Now please tell me do you believe God is The/A Trinity?
If so you must change your belief thatGod is such and make up a different view to fit your doctrine than what you folks say you believe.

Is God three persons? Or not? Is God three beings as stated by so many or are those Trinitarians in error or is it you are in error?

Tell me MacG do you have any books written by Oneness ministers or authors or read any? And what might they be, I know Trinitarians have done little study about us Apostolics and or our Doctrine.

Shot 83 Sa****ay best round this year.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

Theos was not modified in any other p***age as Jn 1:1, go retread it.
he didn't want to deal with what exposed his position, by not posting the three other p***ages as I mentioned, that tells me he wanted to intentionally misinform, or he really didn't know Greek as much as he Put on.

Pros ton Theon = in things pertaining to God .
Heb 2:17,5:1, and yes Rom. 5:17.
John 1:1 should have been the same.

As Pros ton is rendered "with" so many more times than pertaining to, which grammar rules would disallow the following:

Rom 15:17 ""Therefore in Christ Jesus I have found reason for boasting in with God."

Heb 2:17 "Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest with God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people."

Heb 5:1 "For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of men with God, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins;


2 Corinthians 5:8 "pros ton kurion" (“with the Lord”): 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord" or "8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home pertaining to the Lord"

Why is pros ton rendered as 'with' in 2 Cor?

Now please tell me do you believe God is The/A Trinity?
If so you must change your belief thatGod is such and make up a different view to fit your doctrine than what you folks say you believe.

Is God three persons? Or not? Is God three beings as stated by so many or are those Trinitarians in error or is it you are in error?

Just examining Scripture here. There is but one God.

Tell me MacG do you have any books written by Oneness ministers or authors or read any? And what might they be, I know Trinitarians have done little study about us Apostolics and or our Doctrine.

I have not.

Shot 83 Sa****ay best round this year.

Always feels good to do your best. My last outing on Mother's Day, I had two holes in one, the windmill was usually kind.

[Tom Boots]

84 ON A DIFFERENT COURSE SUNDAY, I hit the stick and missed hole in one by a foot at 150 yds.
Hit the stick at 100 yds two holes latter, but jumped off the green.

Now I don't know what version you are using, but it would seem to be one that someone translates what is not in the KJV regarding the three verses that translate
PROS TON THEON 'IN THINGS PERTAINING TO GOD'.

I use the KJV, if another version is used, one should put what version abbreviation at the end.
LIKE GAL. 2:20 AMPLIFIED
20 Now a go-between (intermediary) has to do with and implies more than one party [there can be no mediator with just one person].
Yet God is [only] one Person [and He was the sole party in giving that promise to Abraham. But the Law was a contract between two, God and Israel; its validity was dependent on both].

Note scripture says God is only ONE PERSON, which is what the Greek grammar of heis Theos means from the p***age.

*** 13:7-8 Here God is called a person in the KJV, why not three persons, or will you say this only meant one of a pack of persons making up God and which one?

Now I have a different view of what One God means, I mean one, not a plurality of beings making up a godhead to make a plural one, I don't believe God was seen or spoken by Jews as such and nor did the 1st century APostles, Disciples and Christ do so.

My one God is the only true God and Father, Jesus the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, the Holy One and the only deity we Oneness Apostolics worship and not try to divide God into plurality of persons in a triune godhead.

Now I believe the difference in with as you see in 2 Cor. 5:8 has to do with how something was with Lord as to pertaining to God, it is the language of action, something with Lord is not meaning it was pertaining to God.
"PARA' WOULD BE NEEDED TO BE 'WITH".
"PROS" to pertain to God himself.
With gives the connotation something alongside, God is not with another God as Jn 1:1 attempts to say by translaters, but rather Pertaining to God as in that verse coming from God, in this case the LOGOS or Word, God's Logos not meaning a person or being or another like God or another God, but from God as to pertaining to him.
Logos means IDEA=THOUGHT-EXPRESSION.
NOT ANOTHER GOD, NOT A PART OF A GOD MADE UP OF THREE BEINGS.

So how do you accept what you are in and believe as the truth, when there is another group claiming the same as you, but holding a different viewpoint that Jesus is God and not with two others making up a deity as you hold?
And I am not speaking of a religion like Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons or Christian Scientists etc which have no doctrine or history going back further than the 19th century or 16th century, but which has people named and known to hold a Monarchian view as we do today.
I searched and studied about Oneness Monarchianism and as well Trinitarianism, and found the one (Oneness) to be the church of the Bible and Trinitarianism to be the false church, denying Jesus as God.

[cheachea]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

Trinitarianism to be the false church, denying Jesus as God.

I agree with you that The Lord Jesus Christ is God. Trinitarians believe that Jesus Christ is God. What's the Problem ?

[Tom Boots]

You also believe He is with two others you call God who are persons or beings in a godhead, namely the Father first person in a godhead and the Holy Ghost/Spirit who he is not and thus two others as well like He who is members or individuals or separate persons, A.T. Robertson in John 1:1 of his Greek Word pictures likens them to being face to face, that to me is three gods.
You deny that Jesus is the Father despite Isa. 9:6speaking about Jesus was and is to be called Father( without taking a caveat of the word everlasting and making up another Father being with the Father).
We see as wellin Rev. 21:6-7 that Jesus himself says he would be our God and we his son/s.

Apostolic Oneness Pentecostals of Monarchian faith hold Jesus is God and Father for scripture over and over says God is the Father and that there is only one true God, the Father Jn 17:1-3.

We have problems withthegentile pagan idea that your Catholic Church started and did not get from Jesus Christ,the Apostles, any bible writer or God himself.

One means one to us, not a plurality of beings as corporate members making a group of god being this one God you have.

Tom