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Thread: John 1:1 real problems in there for Trinitarians

  1. #101
    cheachea
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    Matthew 28:19


    Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

  2. #102
    Tom Boots
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    and you people don't do it.
    Instead you repeat what is said, instead of doing what was said baptizing in the name, not names!
    The name of the Father is Jesus and as well the Son and the Holy Ghost is stated to be Jesus.

    Secondly the p***age is called into question regarding baptism and ***les, since Eusebius ca 315 a.d. never quoted the text as such, but rather as " Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."
    This fits with Luke's statement about the Great Commision in Luke 24:47
    "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations beginning in Jerusalem."
    As well as it fitting with ACTS 2;38, 8:16, 10:48, 19:, 22:16.

    The oldest Hebrew texts do no have Baptism or ***les either.

    So the evidence is against your faulty idea, but what I like is your own Mother religion the Roman cult saying in the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA II, pg 263
    "THE BAPTISMAL FORMULA WAS CHANGED FROM THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST TO THE WORDS FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IN THE SECOND CENTURY."

    I have many other similiar type quotes about the insertion of a faulty ***le baptism and it replacing the original Jesus name authentic formula.

    like Schaff Herzog Enc.
    Jerusalem Bible
    James Moffett's N.T.
    HASTINGS DICTIONARY OF THE BIBLE
    TOM HARPUR religion editor
    The Bible Commentary
    In Theology of the N.T. by R. BULTMANN
    DOCTRINE AND PRACTICE OF THE EARLY CHURCH BY STUART G. HALL
    and more
    EVIDENCE IS AGAINST YOU CATHOLICS AND PROTESTANT HARLOT WORKS.

  3. #103
    cheachea
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    So what you're saying is that you don't believe the Word of God.

  4. #104
    cheachea
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    Was Jesus being a ventriloquist in Matthew 3:16-17 when His Father said from Heaven, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" ?


    Also, how did Jesus descend like a dove on Himself ?

    Matthew 3;16-17
    16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

  5. #105
    Senior Member MacG's Avatar
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    I have never heard any Trinitarian address God as Dear Trinity it is not a name. It amazes me that you can claim to speak truth but if your comments were to be placed onto an answer sheet on a Trinity quiz, the grade that you'd receive would be an 'F'. Shame too, because testing well on it doesn't mean you have to agree with it and you know better. How can a 'Holiness' person persist in bearing false witness is beyond me.

    You are close to blaspheme in reducing the Holy Spirit to 'a bird' and the Father and the Son as mere gods.

    We Pray to the Father in the Name of Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit just as the Scripture teaches. The Trinity is an observed doctrine, e.g. "This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased" and the Holy Spirit descends in the form of a dove upon his tabernacle of flesh...It is more confusing to me to think that the in the tabernacle (body) of Jesus was Jesus, when the Father (who really is Jesus) was heard from on high and the Spirit (who really is Jesus) descended on the physical Jesus (who was in dwelt already Jesus). To me it is redundant to have three manifestations of the same person, the dynamics seem fraudulent because there is no real relationship there.

    Unless there are three persons in relationship to one another who are the One God. Three Who's, all of which are described as having the attributes of God and yet as Israel heard there is but One God. This is what we Observe, three in relationship and in Genesis we observe that God created man in his image male and female he created them in relationship. He created Adam and when a suitable mate was not found God took her out of him (bone of my bone) and yet the two shall be echad (one flesh). Lest you think that refers to babies Jesus said of divorce mark 10:6 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. “FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. “What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”

    That is how I understand the Trinity. The scriptures stating that there three (somethings, I'll stick with persons) having the attributes of God in relationship within the one God.
    Last edited by MacG; 06-13-2013 at 01:09 AM.
    "Said I'm not what I ought to be, but I'm better, better than I used to be, I'm gettin better all the time" - Blind Boys of Alabama Ephesians 4:22-24 NASB ..."that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth"

  6. #106
    Tom Boots
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    The three something's godhead, what a hoot!
    Just why we see you people with what we say is three persons from your own explanation.
    You pray to the Father in the name of Jesus, but don't believe for a instant that he is what scripture and Jesus himself says he is, The Father Isa. 9:6, Rev. 21:6-7 and many other scriptures saying GOD is the Father.
    Instead you come up with a bogus Son of God being the God he is Son of.

    You see it's red cant for three manifestations of the same God, when we show that God was manifested in the flesh 1 Tim.3:16 and you denyit, I stead you want to have what scripture never says and that's three persons or three somethings!

    S rapture speaks of the Spirit of Godbeing manifest, but you deny that, but there is three something's, which if each is called god, then each is a god.

    You people abuse words like echad and deny that it means in referring to God, a sole numerical one, but instead like gentile paganists of old means a plurality, which got them in trouble with the Hebrew man who held one God, as one Lord.
    You destroy the word Elohim and throw out how they held it and it is now suppose to mean God is a group and something's, that you better like to all persons and whichI see three individuals as three gods.

    See Macg, I came out and recanted and repented of being a Trinitarian, it was not there, cannot be found and was a most hateful bloody religion.So I know how the Catholic man thought or the Protestants taught, I came from thatTrinity cult.

    How is it confusing to believe that , In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with Jesus and the Word was Jesus?
    But no, you got two gods there and cannot even abide by your church's own definition and term God means The Trinity.
    You then try to hammer me for merely showing you call your gods that, but don' twang to actually hold it as such.
    TRY JUST GIVING THE FALSE TERM UP.

  7. #107
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Boots View Post
    The three something's godhead, what a hoot!Just why we see you people with what we say is three persons from your own explanation.
    You pray to the Father in the name of Jesus, but don't believe for a instant that he is what scripture and Jesus himself says he is, The Father Isa. 9:6, Rev. 21:6-7 and many other scriptures saying GOD is the Father.
    Instead you come up with a bogus Son of God being the God he is Son of.

    You see it's red cant for three manifestations of the same God, when we show that God was manifested in the flesh 1 Tim.3:16 and you denyit, I stead you want to have what scripture never says and that's three persons or three somethings!

    S rapture speaks of the Spirit of Godbeing manifest, but you deny that, but there is three something's, which if each is called god, then each is a god.

    You people abuse words like echad and deny that it means in referring to God, a sole numerical one, but instead like gentile paganists of old means a plurality, which got them in trouble with the Hebrew man who held one God, as one Lord.
    You destroy the word Elohim and throw out how they held it and it is now suppose to mean God is a group and something's, that you better like to all persons and whichI see three individuals as three gods.

    See Macg, I came out and recanted and repented of being a Trinitarian, it was not there, cannot be found and was a most hateful bloody religion.So I know how the Catholic man thought or the Protestants taught, I came from thatTrinity cult.

    How is it confusing to believe that , In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with Jesus and the Word was Jesus?
    But no, you got two gods there and cannot even abide by your church's own definition and term God means The Trinity.
    You then try to hammer me for merely showing you call your gods that, but don' twang to actually hold it as such.
    TRY JUST GIVING THE FALSE TERM UP.
    My advice isn't always taken, but heck I give it anyways, just be careful how you speak or type concerning the Holy Ghost.

  8. #108
    Senior Member MacG's Avatar
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    It is funny that you laugh at three somethings for that is what Oneness holds to, three offices, three modes, etc. As I said I'll stick with persons as only they can be in true relationship.

    when we show that God was manifested in the flesh 1 Tim.3:16 and you denyit
    Trinitarians do not deny it we just deny your interpretation of it. "He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory". He, Jesus, appeared in the flesh, vindicated by Jesus and was taken up by Jesus. Right? Again it is so confusing when the writers use different pronouns giving the impression of there being a difference between God and the Spirit of God (God said let Us make...and the Spirit of God brooded over the waters when it should have just been written "God said I'll make...and God brooded over the waters...much clearer to me.

    Echad means 'one' not 'pertaining to'.

    See Macg, I came out and recanted and repented of being a Trinitarian, it was not there, cannot be found and was a most hateful bloody religion.So I know how the Catholic man thought or the Protestants taught, I came from thatTrinity cult.
    Then you are without excuse in persisting in bearing false witness by using three Gods in your depiction of the doctrine.

    How is it confusing to believe that , In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with Jesus and the Word was Jesus?
    See even you can't stop translating it 'with'. So Jesus was with Jesus or Jesus was pertaining to Jesus? Lingustic nonsense.
    "Said I'm not what I ought to be, but I'm better, better than I used to be, I'm gettin better all the time" - Blind Boys of Alabama Ephesians 4:22-24 NASB ..."that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth"

  9. #109
    cheachea
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    Hey Tom, who said “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” in Matthew 3:16-17 ? Was it Jesus or The Father ?

  10. #110
    Tom Boots
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    No, he was not.
    Jesus as the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY did not need to throw his voice or use the voice box and throat and mouth and tongue of the Son of God.
    God gives voice to his presence as Spirit and does not have some body or need it to do so.
    So when a sound came from heaven (atmosphere) God invisible and Omnipresent everywhere gives voice to his presence.
    It was our God and Father, Jesus the Lord speaking, not Jesus Christ the Son of God a man.
    Jesus Spirit is not a bird, the bird was a mere visual appearance to show the anointed Christ/Messiah and for John to know who this was.

    A man, Christ Jesus was in the water, God's Spirit was given a visible appearance and temporary only for to show who this was and IS NOT A BIRD and not another person.
    God's invisible presence was voiced for mankind, He is the only God present and is Spirit and is Jesus our one true God and Father.

    SO THE VOICE WAS GOD THE FATHER'S, WHO IS JESUS according to Isa. 9:6 and Rev. 21:6-7 and the verses that say that God is our Father and if Jesus as to Spirit is God, then he has to be as the only true God, the Father John 17:1-3.
    Tell me cheachea if the Father is the only true God, then you believe there is a false couple of other gods and Jesus is a fraud.

  11. #111
    Tom Boots
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    I believe the word of God and you don't, for if you did and if MT. 28:19 was written even as we have in most versions, then you disobey that word and do not baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, which the Apostles show by their words was in JESUS name.
    You cannot show anywhere , where anyone baptized repeating those words when baptized as in ACTS 8:16 AND 19:5 and stated to be in Acts 2;38, 10:48 and 22:16.
    YOU FOLKS CANNOT EVEN TELL US THE FIRST KNOWN BAPTIZED OR THE LAST IN SCRIPTURE , in those ***les.
    There was a formula and Trinitarian scholars state so, you follow a CHANGED CATHOLIC formula and not the Bible.

    Now the oldest Hebrew text the EVAN BOHAN SHEM TOV does not have anything in the p***age about baptism or ***les.
    Eusebius ca 319 a.d. in his Proof of the Gospel 7 times in quoting the verse did not use Baptism or ***les or any reference to it, his words were close to Luke 24:47 and that teaching was to be in Jesus name.
    Now some modern Trinitarians have tried to say there was no name spoken and it is by "authority only "and no verbal ascent to a name, but that is not what History shows and is a trying to hide the fact they they know they have no support for the lies of Catholic teaching.

  12. #112
    Tom Boots
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    So the evidence is against your faulty idea, but what I like is your own Mother religion the Roman cult saying in the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA II, pg 263
    "THE BAPTISMAL FORMULA WAS CHANGED FROM THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST TO THE WORDS FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IN THE SECOND CENTURY."

    TELL ME CHEACHEA, why did you avoid that quote from your mother church, that you are following a lie not from scripture, but changed by ROME!?

  13. #113
    cheachea
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    Was it Jesus or The Father ?

    You only have 2 options, Jesus or the Father. Please just say Jesus or the Father. Please just answer the question plainly.

  14. #114
    Tom Boots
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    Jesus is the Father as the Spirit Deity and he was the man Christ Jesus the Son of God a perfect sinless man of flesh and bones.
    Jesus fulfills both roles as well as being the Paraclete the comforter see 1 Jn 2:1 for that alone with Jn 14:16-26.

  15. #115
    Tom Boots
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    I am not degrading the Holy Spirit, I hold it as a manifestation of Jesus Spirit.

  16. #116
    cheachea
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Boots View Post
    Jesus is the Father as the Spirit Deity and he was the man Christ Jesus the Son of God a perfect sinless man of flesh and bones.
    Jesus fulfills both roles as well as being the Paraclete the comforter see 1 Jn 2:1 for that alone with Jn 14:16-26.
    Fair enough, and thank you for answering plainly.

    Tom, I'm telling you man The Trinity is a true doctrine brother. I know you love The Lord Jesus Christ and I do to. Hopefully The Holy Spirit of God will reveal all Truth to you about this.

  17. #117
    Tom Boots
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    It was Jesus as the Father and not as the man Christ.
    Jesus is Father , Son and that Holy Spiritwhich resides and leads us.

  18. #118
    Tom Boots
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    I came out of that doctrine and there is not three persons or personages in the Bible as God , that is three gods.
    See you deny that Jesus is all of deity, you hold he is a part of a deity and that there is two other beings with him, Father ( who is the only true God according to John 17:1-3, so that means you worship a untrue deity) as you hold Jesus and two others with him, and believe there will be three in heaven, not a Holy One, but a corporate deity made up to have a plural one.
    Jesus is God and He begot a body and of flesh and bones and became partly his creation.
    Jesus is called God and Father in Isa. 9:6 and as well a son and child, but the prophet.
    Jesus himself stated he was our God and we his sons in Rev. 21:6-7.
    You will also see scriptures by looking in a concordance that God is the FATHER.
    The man Christ is the Son.

  19. #119
    Tom Boots
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    Oh I guess you never saw a Trinitarian write or call their deity Trinity either?

  20. #120
    Tom Boots
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    Yes Jesus was as a man (the Christ) pertaining to God and was that God as Spirit and not as a man.

    Echad does mean one and not pertaining, I never said it was that.

    Persons is a manmade idea foreign to the Bible for God.

    If you'll,d Jesus with two other persons In a godhead, then you hold not one, but Three gods.

  21. #121
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Boots View Post
    I ask this question to Trinitarians is God a Trinity or not?
    Is God able to be seen or not?
    Is God a man?
    Is God flesh and bones?
    Is God able to sit face to face with himself as another being?
    Where was the Holy Spirit God in all this about John 1:1?
    God is in Trinity....this is the teaching of the Bible.
    God is 3-persons within the 1-God.

    We dont actually know much more than that about God's nature......but clearly it is very different than our own.

  22. #122
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Boots View Post
    Is God able to be seen or not?
    no....that is the thing about God.
    He is spirit, and so does not show up to our eyes.
    God can manifest Himself in ways we can understand...he can speak out of a burning bush or above the ark....
    But because his nature is always spirit we don't have any way to see him normally without God first doing something in some way, that somehow allows us to see "something" that we may never truly understand.

  23. #123
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Boots View Post
    Is God a man?
    No...God is not a man, never was a man, can can never be a man....

    the nature of God is beyond time...he is from everlasting to everlasting....not just very old, but not held by time....totally outside time and space.
    This is why Jesus said that "before Abraham was born, I am"...and why he could not say, "Before Abraham was born, I have been"

    To say "I have been" would mean that Jesus was trapped in time like we are...with one moment going after another.
    But God is not held in time like that....there is no past, no future to him....nothing that he did before....nothing changes in God...he does not get older, was never younger.

  24. #124
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Boots View Post
    Is God flesh and bones?
    No.
    God is spirit, and a spirit does not have flesh and bones.
    The nature of god is, was and always will be spirit...God is unchanging in his nature as God.

  25. #125
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Boots View Post
    Is God able to sit face to face with himself as another being?
    In his pure spirit nature God is unseen to our human eyes.

    As pure spirit, God has no **** to sit on...

    For us however, God can manifest himself in ways that allow us to understand about him....aside from this we would have no knowledge of god at all.

    But God makes use of wordings in the Bible, that have been picked to give us an idea of things we can never truly understand....
    Thus when someone talks about the 'arm of god around the world' we understand this to be talking symbolically, and not physically.
    there are other things like this listed in the Bible...the eyes of god, the voice of god, the wings of god, etc....the "face of god" is another such use of a symbolic wording to teach us about a concept that we would never truly understand other ways.

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