The Atonement of Jesus Christ---all men--or just a few?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by MacG

But if you choose not not follow:
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!

Exactly. Jesus WANTS all of us to be saved, so if some of us end up not being saved, it's not because Jesus wanted it that way. It's because some of us CHOSE to say "No, thanks" to His offer. Which refutes Billy's idea that Jesus chose to die only for some of the human race. The only way Jesus would have refused to die for some of us, would be if He DIDN'T want some of us to be saved.

So your "Cake" ****ogy, and the scripture you cited above, both show how incorrect Billy's belief is about Jesus and what His desire is toward the human race.

Some Christians say that if you have incorrect beliefs about Jesus, then you have "another" Jesus with "another gospel" and you are therefore not a Christian....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Jesus WANTS all of us to be saved

God doesn't delight in anyone rejecting Him, but if God wanted to save every single person he certainly could do that but we both know that not everyone will be saved.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Romans 5:18--King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

God doesn't delight in anyone rejecting Him, but if God wanted to save every single person he certainly could do that but we both know that not everyone will be saved.

And the reason not everyone will be saved is......??

a) Jesus didn't love those people and didn't want them to have a chance at salvation so He refused to atone for their sins.
b) Jesus does love those people and did atone for their sins, but those people refused to do what was necessary to let that atonement help them.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

And the reason not everyone will be saved is......??

Because not everyone chooses to come to Christ.

Now tell me from your point of view why not everyone is saved since you said "Jesus WANTS all of us to be saved"?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

And the reason not everyone will be saved is......??

Come on Jeff I answered your question now answer mine. Why doesn't God save every single person since you said "Jesus WANTS all of us to be saved" and God certainly has the power to save all of us?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Because not everyone chooses to come to Christ.

So it's not CHRIST who chooses to save THEM? Since when? Evangelicals have been telling me literally for decades that Christ is the one who takes the first step, and all we are able to do is REACT to that.

You know, the old "We only love Christ because He first loved us" proof text?

Why are you changing the order of events so that you agree with the LDS doctrine that we are able to make choices that God then reacts to, depending on what our choice was?

Now tell me from your point of view why not everyone is saved since you said "Jesus WANTS all of us to be saved"?

How many times must you be told this? To LDS, Jesus wants all of us to be saved because He LOVES all of us and wants all of us to be saved, so much that He DIED for all of us, and the reason some of us won't be saved is because they will REJECT or IGNORE or FIGHT AGAINST what He did for them.

Just like if someone loves you and wants you to be healthy, so He buys you a nutritious meal, pays for it, and puts it within your reach, but you refuse to eat it, so you die of malnutrition. Can you see how strange it sounds for someone to ask


"But then why does anyone die of malnutrition, if that meal-provider WANTS all of us to eat a healthy meal?"

????

[MacG]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

You provided the opportunity for all. If Christ only died for the few--then the rest did not even have an opportunity. Christ provided an opportunity for all men to inherit eternal life--by removing the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall--and justified all men of life. It was a free gift to all mankind--no faith nor acceptance required--Christ and His perfection alone:


Romans 5:18--King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Matthew 22 "Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. Again he sent out other slaves saying, ‘Tell those who have been invited, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.”’ But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’ Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.

“But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.”

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----You provided the opportunity for all. If Christ only died for the few--then the rest did not even have an opportunity. Christ provided an opportunity for all men to inherit eternal life--by removing the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall--and justified all men of life. It was a free gift to all mankind--no faith nor acceptance required--Christ and His perfection alone:


Romans 5:18--King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Originally Posted by MacG

If I had brought pie, others would have partaken but not the cake people

Just an observation, Mac, if you will. The free gift to all men did not involve anyone's choices. It "came upon" all men when Christ finished it--not when someone accepted it. It was Christ alone. He finished it. Nailed it to the cross. Over. Done. Finished. Complete. He alone--with His perfection--accomplished the free gift--and it came upon all men--then and there. Nothing left to do to complete the free gift. And it came upon all men--past tense.

IMO--you might be confusing Christ's Atonement for all men with the personal reception of eternal life, or the forgiveness of sins. The Atonement for all men's sins neither gave anyone eternal life--nor did it forgive the first sin. But it did absolve all men from the condemnation due to the Fall--and gave all men the opportunity to inherit eternal life--and obtain the forgiveness of sins--by obeying the conditions set by the Redeemer.

There is a difference between the OPPORTUNITY to inherit life--and the actual reception of it. For instance--if the Atonement forgave anyone's sins--then why were all commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?

It's likened to a college--the opportunity to gain an education in America is presented by the presence of a college--but one has to obey the criteria in order to obtain the diploma. There is a difference between an opportunity and the personal reception of a diploma. There is also a difference between the Atonement--where are men were afforded the opportunity through Christ's Blood Atonement--where the condemnation was taken from all men due to the Fall--providing all me with the opportunity to be judged for their own actions, and not Adam's--and the personal reception of the remission of sins, God's grace-----which came through repentance and water baptism. His grace for our obedience to Him.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So it's not CHRIST who chooses to save THEM? Since when?

You asked why isn't everyone saved. Those who are not saved choose not to place their trust in Christ and they are responsible for that choice.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Why are you changing the order of events so that you agree with the LDS doctrine that we are able to make choices that God then reacts to, depending on what our choice was?

We all make choices Jeff and we are all responsible for the choices that we make.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

To LDS, Jesus wants all of us to be saved because He LOVES all of us and wants all of us to be saved, so much that He DIED for all of us, and the reason some of us won't be saved is because they will REJECT or IGNORE or FIGHT AGAINST what He did for them.

The Mormon Jesus wants everyone to be saved, yet he doesn't save everyone. He must value something else as being more important than saving everyone. He values free will as being more important than salvation. Right?

[MacG]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Just an observation, Mac, if you will. The free gift to all men did not involve anyone's choices. It "came upon" all men when Christ finished it--not when someone accepted it. It was Christ alone. He finished it. Nailed it to the cross. Over. Done. Finished. Complete. He alone--with His perfection--accomplished the free gift--and it came upon all men--then and there. Nothing left to do to complete the free gift. And it came upon all men--past tense.

IMO--you might be confusing Christ's Atonement for all men with the personal reception of eternal life, or the forgiveness of sins. The Atonement for all men's sins neither gave anyone eternal life--nor did it forgive the first sin. But it did absolve all men from the condemnation due to the Fall--and gave all men the opportunity to inherit eternal life--and obtain the forgiveness of sins--by obeying the conditions set by the Redeemer.

There is a difference between the OPPORTUNITY to inherit life--and the actual reception of it. For instance--if the Atonement forgave anyone's sins--then why were all commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?

It's likened to a college--the opportunity to gain an education in America is presented by the presence of a college--but one has to obey the criteria in order to obtain the diploma. There is a difference between an opportunity and the personal reception of a diploma. There is also a difference between the Atonement--where are men were afforded the opportunity through Christ's Blood Atonement--where the condemnation was taken from all men due to the Fall--providing all me with the opportunity to be judged for their own actions, and not Adam's--and the personal reception of the remission of sins, God's grace-----which came through repentance and water baptism. His grace for our obedience to Him.

Just an observation, dberrie2000, you dance pretty good. But I see that you completely glossed over the Scripture I provided and gave me a lot of your own words.

"providing all me with the opportunity to be judged for their own actions, and not Adam's"

I may be wrong but I believe that this is the false foundation which you have built your house: Nobody is judged/held accountable for Adam's sin but Adam: EX 24:16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by MacG

Just an observation, dberrie2000, you dance pretty good. But I see that you completely glossed over the Scripture I provided and gave me a lot of your own words.

I may be wrong but I believe that this is the false foundation which you have built your house: Nobody is judged/held accountable for Adam's sin but Adam: EX 24:16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."

I wonder if mormons shag?
dberrie, I have two left feet, you wanta dance?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 4:16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Romans 4:20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Bump for DB

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Romans 5:18--King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The Mormon Jesus wants everyone to be saved, yet he doesn't save everyone.

And, amazingly, the JESUS OF THE BIBLE wants the same thing, yet HE doesn't save everyone either !! What a coincidence!!

Hey....I wonder if the Mormon Jesus and the Bible Jesus are actually the SAME Jesus...

[MacG]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Agreed. But the reason they can be judged according to their works--is they had an opportunity to choose and be judged according to their own works. If God had not Atoned for them--they would not ever had had the chance to make choices--it would not make any difference what they did--they would be condemned, period. They would have never had a chance.

Please restate.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

And, amazingly, the JESUS OF THE BIBLE wants the same thing, yet HE doesn't save everyone either !! What a coincidence!!

Hey....I wonder if the Mormon Jesus and the Bible Jesus are actually the SAME Jesus...

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Jesus wants all of us to be saved because He LOVES all of us and wants all of us to be saved

If the Mormon Jesus wants every single person to be saved then why doesn't he save every single person? Is he capable of doing so?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If the Mormon Jesus wants every single person to be saved then why doesn't he save every single person? Is he capable of doing so?

Saved, saved, and ?
Lets see, every human being minus say, (Satan, son of perdition, and my sixth grade teacher) will be given the chance to make it to the lowest of mormon heavens.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

And, amazingly, the JESUS OF THE BIBLE wants the same thing, yet HE doesn't save everyone either !! What a coincidence!!

Hey....I wonder if the Mormon Jesus and the Bible Jesus are actually the SAME Jesus...

John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

John 10:25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.


John 17: 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If the Mormon Jesus wants every single person to be saved then why doesn't he save every single person?

Because not every person is interested in being saved. If you as a parent want all your kids to turn out a certain way, why don't you force them all to be what you want them to be?

Is he capable of doing so?

It's not in His nature to be a tyrant.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Because not every person is interested in being saved.

So the Mormon Jesus desires something that is more important than saving every single person? And what is that exactly?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

It's not in His nature to be a tyrant.

Could the Mormon Jesus save everyone if he wanted to? Or is he incapable of saving everyone because he simply can't unless we add our righteous works? Let's look at your our scriptures to get an answer.

Alma 11:37
37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.

Isn't it true that the LDS Jesus in incapable of saving everyone even if he wanted to?

[nrajeffreturns]

I would take a deity who wants all of us to be happy, but whose LOVING NATURE prevents Him from forcing them to be happy if they don't really want to be, over a "deity" who hates most people and who only wants a small percentage of them to be happy and therefore made it impossible for the majority to escape endless misery.